Black holes do not have any arms, let alone spiral arms.

How is it that people who make these claims say that it's impossible to see this mystery planet, and yet know so much about it??

Who is "we"? What records? Where did they get these records? If "they" could get these records, why can't thousands of professional astronomers, nor tens of thousands of amateur astronomers get these "records" as well?

Ok, I don't know what universe the author is discussing, but it's not our universe, because physics simply does not work this way. We know this for a fact, because we have centuries of observations that tell us enough about celestial mechanics to know this cannot happen. It's a great sci-fi story, but it's pure fiction. This is just fact. To deny it is to be in the same league as those who still claim that Earth is flat, or only 6000 years old.

Rob

Van,

Regarding your first link, as well as your library mention, first, Meier is quite a distance from the nearest major library and, as common sense will tell us, back in 1979 scientific information didn't get from point of discovery into German translation and publication and placement in a presumed library virtually overnight.

Step back and consider what is facing you here. We're nitpicking some easily refuted fine points of availability of fairly obscure scientific information to a one-armed farmer, working as a night watchman, raising a family with three children, renovating a run down farm house, with three American investigators virtually living with (and observing) him and his family.

Really, think about this.

As for the earliest date that Meier published his info, it's around October 19 - 24, as best can be determined. And Stevens has virtually sworn that he had it on March 9.

I, Rob Ross, hereby make the claim that at least 3 more plutoids of near-Pluto mass will be discovered near the orbit of Pluto and the Kuiper belt by 2015. You can quote me on that. I said it here on 5/29/09. (Where do I pick up my prophet robes, btw?)

Rob

Rob,

Work with me now. As I said before, I cannot defend or argue that bit about another planet. However, I think that a read of all of the info I'm entering here is worth some thinking through, such as what we're discussing here with Io.

We're far from done.

P.S. Arrogance and derision aren't the prime indicators of an educated mind.

Go over the Io info and address it.

Your assessment is both premature and an inappropriate ad hominem. There are, in fact, people with strong research experience in our membership as well as those who hold or have held security clearances...even in the DOD. I held one myself. Besides, holding a security clearance does not make one an objective researcher...nor does associating with clearance holders necessarily equip one to know the difference.

I advise you once again to focus your attention on the assertion that "The Billy Meier UFO contacts in Switzerland are indeed authentic...". You have not established an evidentiary link between Io, TNOs, and intra-Mercurial bodies and that assertion. Instead, these subject seem to serve only as a distraction from your original claim.

__________________
Brett
Peters Creek, Alaska
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Brett,

While I appreciate and respect your comments, having said what you've said concerning your own experience and that of others here, it should be clear that putting (or just beginning to put) a lot of evidence forward is a process.

Now we could have started with the claims focused on the UFO element, as I offered some info on that already, but since this is an astronomy oriented group I thought I'd pull out some of that type info for evaluation.

With the introduction of the Io information, and noting also just how the language is used, I think that an objective researcher is going to be more than casually interested in just how this farmer happens to be in possession of all of this, especially since it's easy to show that it was virtually impossible for him to have had access to information that NASA didn't even have when he first published it!

So I'll repeat my suggestion for all concerned here, saying "I don't...know" isn't, or shouldn't be, viewed as humiliating, etc.

As I showed, there were images of Io vulcanism before March 9. Voyager's encounter was big news so, even taken at face value, this isn't terribly impressive.

__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

If it please our court here, please feel free to review any and everything at my site (and those linked from it). I'm glad to work with this protocol but I have no objection to questions/challenges about any of the info at those sites.

I'll be begging off soon as it's already been a long day for me, I still have a touch of jet lag and I'd truly love to be able to participate more over the weekend, if possible.

Van,

Respectfully, nonsense. Meier's info regarding the volcanism preempted NASA's announcement that this discovery was the most important of the Voyager mission!

And what about the ionized ring of Jupiter, the nature of Io's smooth surface, due the particulate falling back down on it, etc.?

Please don't disappoint me with obviously flimsy arguments. Because no one here has actually researched this case, has spoken to the investigative team, over a dozen witnesses, five other photographers, etc., no one would even know that in those days Meier only had a moped to get around on and he lives some 45 kilometers from Zurich, the closest location for any kind of libraries, which logic has already told us wouldn't have had the faintest chance of having German language versions of NASA documents available - even if a Swiss farmer was, for some unknown reasons, interested in obtaining them!

I know it's late but let's not go so far a field. This is a very respectable situation that hasn't yet been debunked or explained away, despite decades of examination.

Okay, I very much appreciate this opportunity and that we've gotten this far. Truly, if this had just been a board of closed minded skeptics we would have been done long ago. Instead, it may be possible that we have quite a bit more to discuss, think through and consider and it doesn't have to be done all in one night.

The following preview has been approved for audiences of all ages.

Coming soon!

Info about Venus, Saturn's moons, genetic modifications and human-animal hybrids, A-bomb testing and damage to the ozone layer, earthquakes tied to oil extraction and dams, advance warnings of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions, wars and assassinations...all brought to you by that friendly little one-armed farmer from high up in the happy hills of scenic, sunny Switzerland!

Tell your friends, bring your kids, there's plenty of fun to be had by all!

Until tomorrow...

You keep tossing out the word "skeptic" as if it means "debunker." Many of us are skeptics...we reserve belief or acceptance of the proposition until adequate evidence is presented.

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Brett
Peters Creek, Alaska
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Publishing where? Is there evidence for this? The first question for me is did he publish it. Once that's established, we'll talk how and why. Not that "why" is terribly relevant.

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Hi Michael812,

I'm sorry but the material you present is quite unconvincing. Even for me as an engineer (although I've worked for a decade in research) and don't have a degree in metallurgy this it is easy to spot faults in Marcel Vogel's claistatementsms. He should know that any metall is a crystal and shouldn't marvel at that elements bonded to each other retain their own identity.This is valid for any substance such as water for instance. Hydrogen remains hydrogen and Oxygen remains Oxygen even when bonded as water!

Froning failed to notice that a "starship" that achieves lightspeed in 4.3 hours must have some extra cushion (inertial dampers for trekkies) as the acceleration would have reduced any organic being to mush at almost 2000 earth gravities. And pure numerical coincidence of travel time is no proof.

The fact that some "UFO" sound was recorded that couldn't be duplicated by synthesizers (we can't duplicate wale singing up to day-are they ETs?) does proove exactly what?

Do you have any further evidence?

Extracelestial

__________________
Science is not a monument of received Truth but something that people do to look for truth. - Dennis Overbye

Ooookay.

So it seems that what we are going to get is an endless Gish gallop, leaping from one claim to another, proclaiming victory at each point and never looking back. Any refutations will be filed in the "negative column", and then never referred to again or acknowledged as error.

Here's what I see looking at the TNO, Vulcan and Io stuff - an awful lot of scientific illiteracy dressed up in buzzwords. In spite of your fallback position that maybe this means the laws of physics are wrong, they do not paint a very flattering picture. We then get a lot of very specific information about Jupiter and its moons, all of it very shortly thereafter verified by Voyager. Very shortly thereafter. And the interesting thing is, there are numerous contemporaneous errors there. Many of them are laid out in this document:

http://www.iigwest.com/investigation...ke42report.pdf

One such error is the claim that Io once had oceans which later evaporated. This was one prominent theory in March 1979 to explain the potassium and sulphur deposits on Io's surface, but this has since been ruled out. Similarly, Meier claims that sulphur is blasted free of Io's gravity purely by the force of the volcanic eruption. Again, this was suggested in March 1979, but later found to be insufficient, and that magnetospheric forces are responsible. And so on.

So, two possible options. The first is that the aliens are scientifically illiterate and prone to error. The other is that Meier wrote down all of the stuff that was believed cutting edge in March 1979, errors and all. If you want to focus on the supposed date of disclosure, denying any possibility that maybe it was even a few days later due to either error or various other human frailty reasons, then you need to account for the fact that the aliens knowledge is so inaccurate. Again.

This may come as a surprise, but in those days there was also a phenomenon called "newspapers". They were paper-based, and were delivered to houses to inform subscribers of news. Think of it as a stack of printed CNN.com pages. My memory does fade over the years, but to the best of my recollection there were also a few of them in the German language. The offices where such "newspapers" were being made kept in contact with each other and other sources of information by crude forms of email, called "fax" and "telegraph". The speed of information transfer by those devices came close to the speed of Light. As did another revolutionary method of disseminating information across the globe: radio. Think of it as an audio form of youtube. It was often used to quickly tell everyone of weird things. Libraries were a little bit slower, granted. But since they were just the predecessor of Google, it's not surprising. Google does not look at every web page every day either.

ETA: what was that about raising the bar? Aren't we moving the goalposts a little here?

__________________
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin | Meet the OOONG TOE.
"Your right to hold an opinion is not being contested. Your expectation that it be taken seriously is." -- Jason Thompson
'No, mad's when you froth at the mouf,' said Gaspode. 'He's insane. That's when you froth at the brain.'

Prove it.

The NASA images are public record. What comparable evidence can you provide for Meier?

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Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

I find it interesting that the aliens just chose to give Meier knowledge about the Jupiter system that was in line with Voyager discoveries, but fail to make any mention of anything the Galileo probe observed, such as Ganymede's fairly beefy magnetic field - a seemingly unique, and thus surely noteworthy feature for a moon in the solar system.

Michael,

the problem with this from a main stream science point of view is that scientists will never accept Meier's 2 "planetoids" as being valid discoveries by him unless he nailed all the relevant parameters: orbit, mass, radius, composition, etc. We do not know if Eris and MakeMake are these 2 Meier planetoids because he doesn't give enough specific information. For all we know, it could be 2 other TNOs (trans-neptunium objects, objects beyond Neptune), or even not be 2 recognized objects at all.

After all, if Ptaah (the ET?) told him all this on a trip to earth, surely the information would be even more detailed than that available to Herschel about Uranus, etc.

sounds good to me. BAUT people will probably be happy to discuss these also.

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Actually that is not the way things work here. You are making the extraordinary claims and it is up to you to provide proof, not Nick to say why he doesn't believe your claims. Just read the rules.

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______________________________________________
“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

Late in here, but can I just ask which of the several dozen planetoids discovered in the 1990s and 2000s Meier was referring to? Presumably not Eris which being larger than Pluto could hardly be described in the terms he uses. And that in turn begs the question of why he made no mention of Eris (or Makemake or indeed any other Pluto sized or larger objects which may be out there as yet there still undiscovered)?

His prediction can only be deemed accurate if only one such object exists. Since that is very clearly not the case, I call this an indisputable miss.

__________________
Andy

Manager Ukweatherworld

Still, it is very important that we eliminate the possibility that Meier didn't read this in a scientific paper? What is the chain of evidence for his October 78 information? Specifically when did he get the information, when did he first write it down in draft, and when/where was it formally published?

I think it's safe to say that Mr. Meier did not formally publish his "115th Contact" on October 19, 1978.

Do you suppose Semjase or Ptaah have an Internet connection by now? I wish they could join us.

In respect to Meier's UFO photos, please address these points to start with:

http://forgetomori.com/2007/ufos/the...x-photographs/

__________________
______________________________________________
“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

Micheal812:

Has Meier been tested to see if he had spaceflight experience?(it's ludicris and insulting) i withdraw that question.

and "BM" was picked up into the spacecraft and what, He never left the solar system? is my understanding correct??
seem's like a waste of a free ride only to go next door.
(he hasn't aged all that much for the travelling he's done around the heaven's

they also gave him knowledge on the outer solar system but never gave cures for our ailment's.....this is just to fantastic .....

I don't even think ET would believe this.

__________________
it shows you how much i know....not much i guess----"sohhfly"

Well, I see some people have been busy.

Okay, keeping in mind that my claim is that the Meier case is authentic, i.e. that he has been, and still is, meeting with human beings from another world, I am indeed here to present my case. And case is the operative word here, as we are not talking about a singular claim, whether about Io, the Pluto planetoids, or any other singular piece of evidence or information.

So, before I attempt to answer as many of the specific questions and challenges that have emerged, I'm going to present you with some additional information and thoughts that are pertinent and part of my own, many years long, study of this case.

First, it's obvious to me, and probably to you too, that if there really are ETs in UFOs flying around they should be able to "prove it" in something under 67 years, even under 67 minutes. So does it mean that all of this isn't true because no such thing has apparently happened? To answer that I will refer to some of the - very often repeated - information contained within the 25,000+ pages of information.

A space traveling race that could get to our world from even the closest star system (let the astronomers here pick one) would by necessity be very far in advance of us technologically, perhaps thousands of years...or more. It would also be fair to say that they would probably be...smarter than we are also. And by that I also mean that they would also, in addition to vastly superior scientific, technological and intellectual knowledge and abilities, have far more experience than we do with anthropology, psychology, human behavior, etc., even as derived from the study of their own evolution.

And if that race discovered us living on this world, very human common sense would suggest that before openly engaging us, they would want to (and undoubtedly have the means to) do some kind of observation and study to determine various things about us, such as our levels of technological, intellectual, social development, among many things.

Going back to 1942, when the contacts with Meier were said to have begun, we were just coming out of the Second World War, after a relatively recent First World War, the A-bomb had already been used, twice, and there was still much chaos globally. To keep it relatively simple and not have to point out all of the other obvious wars, conflicts and natural and manmade disasters occurring around that time (as well as previously and subsequently) what would "greet" these travelers was a world still largely enveloped in human-to-human hostility, destruction, ignorance, poverty, etc.

Yet this world was also on the brink of new scientific discoveries and innovations, the unfolding development of which could likely be understood and considered in a more long range manner by beings who may have some familiarity with these steps in human evolution, quite possibly having gone through them themselves. In light of even basic anthropological understanding, the idea of suddenly making themselves known and inserting themselves into our reality could be seen to have very unfavorable consequences for a world of far lesser developed beings.

And while many here would say that they'd have no problem (in our contemporary times for sure) with the arrival and presence of supposedly fully human extraterrestrials, it may not be the case at all. One thing that can still be observed as quite operative among, even (if not especially) this internet generation, is an undeservedly high, overestimation of one's actual intelligence, emotional development, mastery of oneself, etc. We often confuse our ease, and sense of self-entitlement, in accessing of communication, entertainment, material goods, sex, etc. with a commensurate level of development of consciousness, self-ability, self-control, etc.

It appears that our perceptions differ very much from what is said to be the perception of us by this alleged ET race.

They perceive us, certainly collectively, as not at all ready for actual encounters with beings who have mastered some of the fundamental issues and levels of development that they have attained, on many levels. They know, from examining our thousands of years of voluntary self-enslavement to religions, and dead end political behavior, that we still dwell largely in irrational beliefs, with the profoundly fearful, guilt ridden and confused conscious and unconscious accompanying thoughts and behaviors, to say nothing of ever-present tendencies, not often suppressed, to extreme, irrational and unnecessary violence.

Being in no hurry to immerse themselves into such a soup, nor to do additional damage to literally billions of fragile psyches in the process, they could choose to simply observe us anonymously or to find a relatively safe, creative way to insert into our world not just their own presence to some degree but some actual, tested, useful to us information, perhaps to help us assure our own...survival.

Being human themselves, they would also know that there were many people who could handle and benefit from some assistance and they also would know, through their own experience, that there were probably quite a few human beings here who always know that they are smarter than everyone else, absolutely confident as to what is and/or isn't "real", true, valuable, etc.

It would be for the latter group that they might also provide some specific educational opportunities, despite the firm resistance that such efforts may nonetheless encounter. And one of the biggest obstacles for this group, and indeed for much of humanity, would be that they want things...the way that they want them, when they want them. They want things to fit neatly into their preconceptions, indeed to conform to their logic and knowledge, including scientific knowledge, etc.

Of course I am not setting you up for any excuses here, and surely many will already be impatient and think that I'm avoiding this or that, beating around the bush, etc. But I ask you to consider that what has so far transpired here, over several pages and many more hours, has not been an instant debunking of some presumed wild, illogical claims. In fact, despite my asking for you to come forward with some information that is relatively easy to access in this internet age, you waited until I posted the information about Io and then went to work to show me how obvious and easy it is to, at the least, create some doubt about Meier's information and, of course, how he obtained it.

It's interesting to me that the response that I got from Dr. Joseph Veverka, at the time Chairman of the Astronomy Department at Cornell University and associated with the Voyager project, was quite different. When I informed him, several years ago, of Meier's information about Io being the most volcanically active body in the solar system preempting NASA's discovery/announcement of it, he said the following to me, "If he said that, three to six months before, then all I can say is that he was right."

Now the question has been raised here if we can prove that Meier did indeed say that before NASA discovered/announced it.

So, to answer that, we will continue with the theme above. It is still known among some of us, that it's necessary to work, to take full self-responsibility for our own knowledge, accomplishments, progress, etc. The influences of religion and politics have long conditioned much of humanity to look outside of themselves for the substance and answers to their lives and to solving the huge, existential questions and challenges that confront us as human beings. Those of us who are free of beliefs and who search for and rely on truth and knowledge are, percentage wise, small in number. And even among this number are many who are not entirely free and independent in their thinking, consciousness or psyches.

To reach the ones who are most ready to receive, contemplate and struggle with evidence of other (more evolved) human beings, an approach would be made that would still, until no longer demonstrably necessary, incorporate certain elements of plausible deniability, so not as to violate the free will of those who may be "pushed over the edge" by evidence and realizations that, even though they may have thought to the contrary, they were nonetheless not capable of safely dealing with.

In keeping with this approach, there would be certain "escape routes" for both physical and informational evidence that would keep absolute "proof" just out of the reach of those who weren't ready for it. There is no condescension intended whatsoever by that remark. A quick, if not perfect, example. A person in a loving, committed relationship of many years suddenly, and very unexpectedly, discovers that their spouse has been carrying on an affair. No matter how stable, intelligent, loving, developed, etc. that they may be, such a shock can lead, and often has led, to a devastating breakdown, violence against self and/or others, etc. - and high intelligence is not only no safeguard against the unexpected, it can often increase the pain as one's intellect effectively turns against oneself and/or others in the fear, pain and confusion, etc.

For some very religious and/or uneducated people to be confronted with the inescapable reality of extraterrestrials arriving in UFOs, demonstrably freely operating outside of the constraints of any terrestrial control, be it military, religious, political, economic, social, etc. would possibly produce mass fear, psychosis, suicide, murder or, once again, servile veneration of the beings as new gods to worship. My own encounters with religious "true believers" regarding the Meier case already has given me plenty of evidence as to what ET contact would lead to for them...and the ETs.

Now, returning to the idea that there are those who are indeed ready for something, though maybe not all that they presume, the evidence is presented or inserted into our world, with certain elements of plausible deniability built in. Specifically, a man is given the opportunity to film one of the UFOs circling a tree in front of a farm house. But to the some people it's "obvious" that the UFO is just a model on a string being manipulated in a pendulum like motion.

Of course, to others with more real world experience in working with models, etc., it may look more like this:
"But, to reflect on the statement that's in the film, I also remember seeing a shot on the Super8 reel that showed a UFO circling around a fairly tall tree. According to that shot, we said that we can't conclusively say whether it's real or not, but it seemed impossible to stage that kind of a shot with a miniature (it would have to be hanging on a very tall crane, with wires - but even then the movements would be hard to achieve.) So, yes, in regards to that shot, we mentioned that we could definitely do it today with CG, but at the time these were supposedly shot - it would have been very hard, probably even impossible, to fake this kind of shot."
Volker Engel, Marc Weigert - Uncharted Territory
Academy Award-winners Special Effects for "Independence Day"

...and, it should be pointed out that these two people are...skeptics when it comes to UFOs.

Additionally, although it's not mentioned in their comments, one can observe this object moving from absolute stillness to a swinging motion - but first pausing, motionlessly, at angle before resuming its action, something that is otherwise impossible. It is for good reason that I have claimed that Meier's UFO photos, films, etc. remain irreproducible; you can't fake with models what is only possible with the real objects.

Likewise, when information is inserted into our world that could catch the attention of scientists and experts who, after all, are still just human beings who may harbor various beliefs of their own, certain elements of plausible deniability would also be present so as to not, again, force the acceptance of absolute "proof".

However, since the obvious "oh yeah, sure" more "rational" alternatives have not escaped me, as they remain ever present with you, perhaps, throughout and despite whatever evidence, thoughts, reasoning I may present, the "proof" that all are knowing that they are fully capable of handling is not withheld from you.

But that proof requires not just the kind of "scientific" thinking that there is absolutely no shortage of here, it requires a very comprehensive kind of thinking that I have been referring to since I began posting here. Contrary to the impression given even here by many participants, life and reality are what they are and, while subject to, and operating within, certain known (and perhaps still unknown) laws, require that we keep expanding our reasoning and thinking abilities, as well as knowledge.

Using an old story as an analogy, police break into a locked from the inside, very warm room, completely empty except for the body of a person who has been clearly stabbed to death. But there is absolutely nothing in the room that could have been used by the person to kill himself. The answer to the problem is that he had killed himself with a piece of ice, which had since melted and completely evaporated. The point here being that not only are there explanations for everything (ultimately) but that they will, and must, accord with logic and actual laws of physics, nature, etc.

So, while we may find some escape routes, i.e. plausible deniability, perhaps with something like the planet described along with the information about the Pluto planetoids, we will find information of varying degrees of high specificity and accuracy - which could not have been made up or acquired by, in this case, Meier. And we will find the same to be true in regards to the important physical evidence.

But if one is an "armchair expert" they will simply look to clinically, but inaccurately, dismiss everything because they think they can do so based on the bumps in the road, some deliberately inserted, and not the road and destination to where it leads.

For someone who has gone to investigate, first hand, 11 times in the past 10 years, met, interviewed and spent time with the principles, family, witnesses, investigators, etc., walked the very land, been in the environment, and who has consulted with scientists, experts, therapists, even a consultant to the U.S. Army Special Forces who evaluated Meier - and another living, first hand witness to the ETs (a retired UN diplomat, no less) for honesty, I have at least the benefit of real life exploration of far more than I can even hope to present in this format.



(Continued)

And, if you have gotten this far despite impatience, thinking that I'm avoiding the "issues", etc. let me return to make a couple of specific comments.

For instance, Extracelestial takes pride in pointing out that Vogel's analysis has "faults"...but she's only read a couple of paragraphs taken from his 45-minute, videotaped analysis of the metals, which are also covered in a report published by the investigators. How scientific is that? She also jumps on the statement by Froning - completely not taking into consideration that most respectable astrophysicists already know that a gravitational field would have to be generated inside a craft to allow for survival and function at such speeds.

gzhpcu comes up with a challenge that already long been dealt with, in numerous articles, at my site. He also fails to note that the garbage can lid picture was provided - by Meier himself to show the similarities, the "close but no cigar" similarities. The video clip of the same WCUFO can be seen on my site. Does that really look like a two-foot in diameter garbage can lid, with everything else built on it, at some 300' feet from the camera, outdoors, in an open field?

While this may understandably be new to most/all of you, it isn't to me, and others who've been studying this for some time.

If you will permit me, when I can return to this I will further address specifics regarding already presented information and offer one into the mix that will require the utmost in "creative" thinking to debunk...or perhaps to expand one's mind.

I am more than willing to do this, as my time permits. In the meantime, a visit to my website may provide you with more information and/or ammunition, as the case may be.

Before you go Gish galloping over the horizon, and given you made such a fuss about it complete with repeated rhetorical questioning, do you have any specific comment on the rebuttal of the Io "predictions"? Specifically, how do you explain the nearly one-to-one correspondence between the Voyager discoveries and Meier's claimed prophecies, while no more modern discoveries were even mentioned (let alone things we don't yet know about the Jupiter system); and how do you explain the quite high number of factual errors made by the aliens that appear to parrot the early and mistaken interpretations of the data reported widely in the media in March 1979?