*****

__________________
Check out my web page of my own processed versions of Apollo mission photos: Apollo ISD Photos

Please provide supporting evidence for this statement.

This is interesting...but backwards. We are here because of the belts. But it does raise an interesting question...at what point in the planet's formation would the magnetic field form? I would imagine it was quite early, long before any conditions suitable for life forms existed.

Manned space flight outside of the Van Allen Belt is science fiction.

Dr. James Van Allen certainly didn't think so.

The radiation that would exist beyond the Van Allen belt would kill any astronauts flying even to the Moon. It would grill them.

How much radiation is out there? Please provide an actual number.

Time to stop the fantasy.

It seems to be a well-believed fantasy. One one side of the question you have every astrophysicist and every engineer in the world. On the other side of the question you have a few noisy people who have never been to college, never built anything more complicated than a birdhouse, and who can't seem to speak in real-world numbers about what radiation is out there.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Well, the burden of proof on those who claim that man has walked on the moon.

Agreed, and it has been provided. You have samples returned, visual records, and examples and documentation of the equipment and procedures used to do it, among other things. Apollo is one of the most extensively and scrupulously documented events in human history.

If you, on the other hand, claim that all that evidence is not the artifacts of an actual event but rather produced by an elaborate hoax, then you have proposed an affirmative rebuttal to explain away that evidence. An affirmative rebuttal assumes a burden of proof.

Now, please provide us with details of what shielding (if any) was on the Apollo craft.

Nominally 7-8 grams per square centimeter.

Should be simple for you to provide, right ?

No, not if you understand how effective shield values must be computed for such a spacecraft. Give me, for example, the thickness of your car body from all points on the exterior to the nearest interior point.

40 years later science is still waiting for this basic information.

Why do you imply that scientists have suffered under controversy for 40 years? True, for 40 (well, closer to 30) years the conspiracy theorists have raised these same ignorant objections, ignoring the answers and pretending there's some grand dilemma. But that's not the same.

The world's engineering community, without exception, accepts the Apollo spacecraft as real, viable spacecraft. The world's astrophysics community, without exception, agrees that the Moon missions were real. 40 years later we're still waiting for the conspiracy theorists to pass basic physics.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Yes, I have lots of evidence.

Follow the link in my signature. I'll expect you not to raise those same questions without being able to address the answers already given.

What evidence do you have that the Apollo crews had any special protection against radiation beyond the Van Allen Belt...

Well, there's your first mistake. The radiation in the Van Allen belt is the single largely unavoidable source of radiation for an Apollo mission. You seem to believe that space outside of the Van Allen belts is constantly awash in deadly radiation. But none of my astrophysics textbooks seems to describe this radiation, nor has any conspiracy theorist yet been able to give me a number for how strong this radiation is supposed to be.

c. None of these ?

This option.

Produce your evidence these Apollo flights were equipped to overcome the solar radiation in outer space.

You are the one claiming such a trip is impossible because of the strength of radiation.

To have drawn such a conclusion based on facts, you would have needed to know:

1. the biological limits of radiation exposure

2. the amount of radiation present outside the Van Allen belts

3. the attenuation factors, if any.

That is, you'd have to be able to compare the amount of radiation (a number) minus the attenuation (a number) with the amount of radiation that would be considered lethal (yet another number). But you don't seem to have any of those numbers; you're asking for them.

So we have to ask what, if anything, is your claim based upon? You demand information but you should already have that information in hand, else how could you have drawn your conclusion?

So please back up your claim with the appropriate numbers. I have already helped you along by giving you the shield value in standard units. Please complete your homework.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

No, let's see you actually debate properly. If you have evidence, provide it.

The detail of the construction of the spacecraft is in the public domain and can be examined by anyone. Where are the professionsls who agree with your assertion that it was inadequate?

Let's see you demonstrate that either of those is actually appropriate. Data on the radiation in space is also freelay available and, as I have already said, billions of dollars of commercial revenue depends on it. Did you read any post, or are you just here to assert your position blindly with every post and not produce any evidence at all?

Produce your evidence that you have ANY understanding of the radiation environment in space and the best ways to shield it.

__________________
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.

For Earth, a large terrestrial planet with a strong intrinsic magnetic field, is a magnetosphere (and as a consequence, a Van Allen radiation belt component) necessary to preserve enough water and a substantial atmosphere so as to be conducive to the development of life? In other words, is Earth's magnetosphere an unnecessary layer of protection? How much different would Earth be today geologically and biologically if the magnetosphere never existed or was lost sometime in the past? Would multicellular organisms have appeared on Earth without the protection afforded by a magnetosphere?

Please, don't fire-up Spore.

Some BAUT threads touching on this:

"Lack of a magnetosphere and effects on atmosphere" (5/2009)
"Is Earth the Optimal for Life?" (3/2009)
"NASA Baffled.. Magnetic Field Breach" (12/2008)
"Life on moons." (3/2008)
"Requirements for interplanetary life" (4/2003)

A recent BAUT thread that discussed four-footed Soviet space travelers that weathered the Van Allen radiation belts and lived:

"A story about Apollo astronaut you may not heard" (7/2009)

I can't resist to collect a point in the "I corrected JayUtah" contest...

Make this "Dr. James Van Allen certainly didn't thought so."

PS: On second thought, maybe "didn't think" is enough past tense. I'm not a native english speaker. Though even being that often doesn't help...

__________________
"Flying in space is risky business, but just staying on this planet is risky business too." - John Young, astronaut

I'm pretty sure that "didn't think" is the correct form, at the very least "didn't thought" sounds weird and I haven't encountered it before despite reading a load.

__________________
"Any Sufficiently Analyzed Magic is Indistinguishable from SCIENCE!" -Agatha Heterodyne

"Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't understand it." -Florence Ambrose

As a native English speaker, I assure you "didn't thought" is awkward and incorrect. "didn't think" is the correct use. I just looked this up and apparently it's called the "past emphatic tense." I didn't even know such a thing existed!

http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000328.htm

Rob

If he were still alive, it would be "doesn't think," I should think.

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Ok, there goes the point
You can always learn something on BAUT, even on conspiracy threads of banned members

__________________
"Flying in space is risky business, but just staying on this planet is risky business too." - John Young, astronaut

Does anybody know that they are going to destroy Dr. Van Allens childhood home if nobody buys it or moves it? What's with that!

According to this the heritage trust is trying to get it moved.

Can't seem to find anything "recent" (within the last month) about this, so it's hard to tell what's going on.

__________________
"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

Beethoven,

You are just like all of the other people out that that think Apollo is a hoax. None of you have any idea what the actual radiation levels are outside of the Earth's atmosphere. Care to educate us on what the levels are? REM per hour or other recognized units are preferred. Saying the astronauts would be fried is not good enough. We need actual numbers. Thanks.

Ranb

This is simply NOT true. If there is ANYTHING that we have learned from space physics, it is that satellites that go around the Earth live long and prosper EXCEPT when the often cross the Van Allen belts.

The Van Allen belts do not protect us, as has already been said before, it is the Earth's magnetic field that protect us from the solar wind. The Van Allen belts are created by high energy particles that get captured and and trapped into running endless rings around the Earth.

Now, take e.g. the spacecraft Geotail, which is in a very long orbit, and which spends lots of time outside the Earth's magnetosphere, but basically NEVER crosses the radiation belts. This spacecraft is still going strong after more than 12 years. Satellites that cross the radiation belts constantly (e.g. Double Star 1) have a lifespan much and much shorter because of the radiation dose it gets. The electronics get fried because of the Van Allen Belts.

So, before you come up with such utter nonsense, you had better check your facts. You claimed in your introduction to this forum that

Apparently, you do not do your "historical research" well enough, you get all the facts wrong constantly.

__________________

Any comments in glorious red are to be considered in ModeratorMode.


善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
He who is good at counting, uses no counting tools
“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

Very nice site, and some interesting results from analysing the photos. Looking forward to even more!

Keep it up!

__________________
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!) but rather, 'hmm.... that's funny...'
- Isaac Asimov

Are we alone in the Universe? Are we the only intelligent life? Who knows? But the universe is so BIG, it somehow seems such a waste of space if we are ....

I'll also add my congrats to GoneToPlaid, really great pic analysis and analytical manipulation, I especially like the accidental Venus captures....

__________________
There we were in the park when suddenly some old lady says I stole her purse..... I chucked the professor at her but she kept coming..... So I had to hit her with this purse I found.
-- Bender

That is quite a different claim to saying that they protect us. You are claiming now that they exist for that purpose, i.e. that they are man-made (or made by someone else?) and put up there deliberately?

Is this truly what you believe, and, if so, do you have any evidence for this?

In Britain, we have somewhat of a "two tier" academic system, brought about, in part, by successive governments' wishes to "democratise" education, which, in reality, means to send everyone to university. As part of this, little community colleges are renamed as universities. When this happens, they will often add horribly low quality staff and courses to their normally very good pre-existing ones.

If our poster is an "academic" over here, my money would be on it being in a "modern" university. If he's lecturing at Oxbridge, I'd be extremely surprised.

__________________
All Moderation in Purple
To report a post (even this one) to the moderation team, click the reporting icon in the upper-right corner of the post:
─────────────────────────────────────────────
◄Rules For Posting To This Board ► ◄Forum FAQs ► ◄ Conspiracy Theory Advice ► ◄ Alternate Theory Advice ►

Perhaps you should research some papers by people who have expertise in this field:

Radiation Protection for Human Missions to the Moon and Mars
http://engineering.dartmouth.edu/~Si...imonsen_91.pdf

Shielding Strategies for Human Space Exploration
http://engineering.dartmouth.edu/~Si...-97-cp3360.pdf

The U.S. National Research Council's views of the radiation hazards in space
http://engineering.dartmouth.edu/~Si.../Setlow_99.pdf

Radiation Exposure and Mission Strategies for Interplanetary Manned Missions (REMSIM)
http://engineering.dartmouth.edu/~Si...Cougnet_05.pdf

NASA Space Radiation Shielding Program
http://engineering.dartmouth.edu/~Si...rghouty_04.pdf

Managing Lunar and Mars Mission Radiation Risks
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lunar/docume...213164-pt1.pdf

You should also sign up to some scientific publication download sites, and read:

Space Radiation Cancer Risks and Uncertainties for Mars Missions
Francis A. Cucinotta, Walter Schimmerling, John W. Wilson, Leif E. Peterson, Gautam D. Badhwar, Premkumar B. Saganti and John F. Dicello

Space Radiation Cancer Risk Projections for Exploration Missions: Uncertainty Reduction and Mitigation
Francis A. Cucinotta, Walter Schimmerling, John W. Wilson, Leif E. Peterson, Gautam D. Badhwar, Premkumar B. Saganti and John F. Dicello

Edited to add: Please note that none of these eminent professionals endorse your opinions.

__________________
"For ignorance to reign, all it takes is for knowledgable people to say nothing"

Lonewulf

I get 403s on all those dartmouth.edu links... are they available elsewhere?

Edit:
Ok... working now for some reason :\

Cheers for the reading material.

They all work for me.

__________________
"Eternal vigilance is the price of supremacy"
------------Mark Twain

"Women are like Voltron. The more you can hook up, the better it gets."

They all work for me. I can probably host them somewhere if need be.

__________________
"For ignorance to reign, all it takes is for knowledgable people to say nothing"

Lonewulf

It must be server glitch. Sometimes I get a 403, then on the next request (even for the same file) it seems to work.

Nick

__________________
--
Nick Theodorakis

I never get a 403. I want a 403. 404 is soooooo 2008.

__________________
To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

I might have got a 403, but I'm not sure. Is 402.9999999... = 403?

__________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day." - Douglas Adams

"Certainly, in the topsy-turvy world of heavy rock, having a good solid piece of wood in your hand is often useful." - Ian Faith

If I knew where to link a Jean Luc Picard facepalm I would ...heh

Pete

__________________
PJE

There's so much I don't know about astrophysics. I wish I had read that book by that wheelchair guy.