This is a reasonable approach...

Your personal standard of reasonableness is irrelevant.

...but only if you understand why your data is incomplete.

No. It has nothing to do with the completeness of the data, but everything to do with the completeness of the analysis. Scientific practice is more involved and sophisticated than you give it credit for.

Suppose you have...

What good are your hypotheticals? We're talking about real science being done by real scientists.

When you've earned your wings as a planetary scientist, maybe it will matter how you think scientific practice ought to be accomplished. Until then you're just trying to measure the performance of qualified experts against your uninformed expectations.

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"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

That's just a detail. Jerry doesn't hold himself to any standards for details, just others.

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Some try to tell me, thoughts they cannot defend,... - Moody Blues.

Neptune- The original Dark Matter.

The author feels that this technique of deliberately lying will actually make it easier for you to learn the ideas. - Donald Knuth

And, your claim to expertise in this matter is.......What? Why exactly should we trust you to understand the papers you've read on this matter? When we have examples of you misunderstanding papers to the point of you thinking it supports your ideas, when in fact it doesn't.

So, you, a rank amateur in this matter, thinks that there is a problem, but the expert in the field doesn't seem to have a problem with it. With your track record here, I think I'll stay with the expert in the field.

__________________
Some try to tell me, thoughts they cannot defend,... - Moody Blues.

Neptune- The original Dark Matter.

The author feels that this technique of deliberately lying will actually make it easier for you to learn the ideas. - Donald Knuth

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jwj

It's a big universe out there...is it really unwinding, really burning out?

Ok, lets look at this. Cassini took off in 1997. It finished it's primary mission in June of 2008. Jerry, if the Cassini team released any data ten years ago, it would have been 1999. Cassini was no where near Saturn at that time. Could you explain exactly how Cassini could have found any kind of water, to pass along to the LCROSS team in 1999. Or is this another example of your lack of attention to detail.

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Some try to tell me, thoughts they cannot defend,... - Moody Blues.

Neptune- The original Dark Matter.

The author feels that this technique of deliberately lying will actually make it easier for you to learn the ideas. - Donald Knuth

Jerry just posted a link proving my point.

Lies, deception, diversion - all typical Jerry.

The timeline of how and why the Cassini lunar data has been explain thoroughly. Nothing wrong happened. Nothing untoward happened. The data has been available for some time - and nobody - including Jerry - bothered looking at it for any purpose other than calibration.

If his attitude wasn't so offensive and insulting to scientists, I'd ignore him. However I refuse to sit here and let him lie about and defame the reputation of scientists and their work.

Wrong standard. A scientist hopes that their theores, derived from the latest data, are close to the truth. We should never be comfortable with our guesses, since we can never prove absolute truth, the best contribution we can make is to nullify a bad idea.

Have you read my essay about my daughter and the cave crickets? We have a variaty of long bodied, white, small-eyed crickets living in caves near our homes. My daughter read in her field guide of insects that this species comes out of the cave at night to feed. She said that is silly - that is what black crickets do, and that is why they are black. In a simple studied with flashlights she demonstrated that the white cave crickets do not react to light; and further that they are most abundant in the far reaches of the cave where there are wet walls. She concluded that the crickets are likely blind and feed on cave wall slime. I don't know where or how the entomologist who wrote the guide collected their facts, but in this case, the ten-year-old girl has new observational information and a better explanation.

No one should be offended when she states the entomologists are wrong: We can only make the best guesses we can with the evidence in hand and keep listening. My daughter is more than twenty years remiss in publishing her information. I suspect that the field guild is still wrong.

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jwj

It's a big universe out there...is it really unwinding, really burning out?

...and what evidence can you present that your daughter had a better explanation?

Oh I see...just another unconfirmed "Jerry story".

But people SHOULD be offended when people like you tell total lies about scientists, their data and thei work processes and then refuse to retract and apologise for those lies when presented with the facts and evidence you couldn't be bothered to find before your vulgar tirade.

i blv nasa was lacking 'unambiguous evidence' previously. the indian space craft did detect water but perhaps the quantities were so small, they were negligible. or perhaps they wanted the 'big news' to be revealed only by their own team so they could enjoy the glory. i doubt there was any conspiracy behind it. call me a skeptic, but i dont see any tangible use coming from this discovery. they say man will get another source of water, or rocket fuel in the form of hydrogen. well, man needs to first learn to respect the water available on earth. whats the point of the lunar discovery if we're going to deplete the source as soon as its been found?

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http://technology-log.blogspot.com

They are talking about using the lunar water to support future space activities, and frankly I'd be happy if they were in a position to use it as soon as it was confirmed.

My daughter took the same coarse as NASA: She did not publish data that was inconclusion; even though it seemed to indicate cave crickets don't leave the cave to feed at night. If I am reading the articles correctly, NASA, Cassini mission scientist had evidence in-hand for a decade that there is more water on the surface of the moon that was suspected from Apollo missions and other early work. In both cases, publishing the studies could have led to follow-up observations that verified of disproved these hypothesis. Sitting on data-even inconclusive data, slows scientific progress.

I am very angry about the way Huygens scientists reported their results in Nature. They have continually over-represented the fidelity of the data; implying that the radar and accelerometers functioned as-expected, when they did not. Both the altitude of the images and the final location of the Huygens probe are not known with any confidence; but the community has been lead to believe otherwise. This was an expensive and important one-shot mission. The successes of the mission are many, but they should not be over-stated.

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jwj

It's a big universe out there...is it really unwinding, really burning out?

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Wrong standard.

And if you and any training or experience in science or scientific practice, your opinion of what constitutes appropriate standards would matter. As it stands you're still just simply assuming that you can ignorantly tell other people their business.

A scientist hopes that their theores, derived from the latest data, are close to the truth.

Agreed. And they, not you, know best how to get there.

Have you read my essay about my daughter...?

No, and I don't care to. Kindly don't change the subject. I'm really not interested in more of your writings. Perhaps if you would read and listen more, you would achieve some sort of credibility.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Closing thread for now.

__________________
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

Sorry I forgot to close the thread.

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All Moderation in Purple
To report a post (even this one) to the moderation team, click the reporting icon in the upper-right corner of the post:
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