One thing that has helped sometimes with people who think that their common sense trumps science is to come up with a couple of examples where their common sense is dead wrong.

The rate of all of two objects of differing weights is actually a good one. If you can get someone to make a prediction (and hopefully it is that the heavier thing will fall faster*), then defend it in a dogmatic and vehement fashion, and then see that they were dead wrong, it may help them to understand why common sense does not always work.

One of the things that we learn during a physics education is to try to remove personal incredulity from a situation. It can seem weird that you get missing maxima in an X-ray crystallograph, that there exists an energy gap in crystals, that time really is relative, and so on, but we learn that these things are true, and measure their truth, and this helps us to avoid rushing to conclusion later, and then defending it without thought.

*And yes, you need appropriate masses to make this obvious, but you can happily pick two things whose mass differs by a factor of ten or more, such as a small coin and an apple, and find that both fall as near as matters at the same rate from shoulder height to floor.

IIRC Apollo 15 (Scott) performed this experiment with an eagle feather and a hammer. Because of Air resitance on Earth, the feather would float down, so it cant be performed here. However on the Moon, it was shown they fell at the same rate. Can we not offer this as evidence we went to the Moon? Oh. right. All that footage was faked.

It has been, on multiple threads in this forum.

Here for one

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At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

Slight nitpick, it was a falcon feather. Fitting when you're part of an all-Air Force crew and your LM is named Falcon.

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"One does not require alien ruins in order to absorb a profound sense of wonder and mystery from the moon. That our civilization had actually visited it is miracle enough." Jason Roberts

In my work I often run into a filter before that filter. It's not even that common-sense doesn't describe the event at hand well, it is that the person doesn't even realize there IS something that goes outside of their untrained intuition. Where this hits me in the paycheck is when the client is going, "What's all this blabbering about comb filtering and decibel scale and feedback threshold? Just give my singer two mics and he'll be twice as loud, okay?"

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

I forget where, but I've read claims that the feather was a fake made out of lead! I know, people will keep on spinning to protect their arguement that the Apollo missions were faked.

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There we were in the park when suddenly some old lady says I stole her purse..... I chucked the professor at her but she kept coming..... So I had to hit her with this purse I found.
-- Bender

But to answer that how about answering "Errrr ... No! BUT if we put on a tiny touch of reverb and a fraction of a second delay on one mic he can be his own backing singer ..... !"

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The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!) but rather, 'hmm.... that's funny...'
- Isaac Asimov

"Entering the lottery defines you as a gambler; supporting SETI defines you as a human ... with passion and hope for the future." - Cosmopaul67 - 28th Jan 2010

Are we alone in the Universe? Are we the only intelligent life? Who knows? But the universe is so BIG, it somehow seems such a waste of space if we are ....

On the 'common sense' theme, there was someone at work who was questioning the validity of Apollo and said, "They used parachutes to land the capsule in the ocean when they returned, why didn't they use parachutes to land on the moon?"

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The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!) but rather, 'hmm.... that's funny...'
- Isaac Asimov

"Entering the lottery defines you as a gambler; supporting SETI defines you as a human ... with passion and hope for the future." - Cosmopaul67 - 28th Jan 2010

Are we alone in the Universe? Are we the only intelligent life? Who knows? But the universe is so BIG, it somehow seems such a waste of space if we are ....

Duh.

Obviously because there was no water to land in.

Sheesh...

That is mind-boggling. I think I would like to have witnessed that
conversation. I don't suppose you can relate what was said next?

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

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http://www.FreeMars.org/jeff/

"I find astronomy very interesting, but I wouldn't if I thought we
were just going to sit here and look." -- "Van Rijn"

"The other planets? Well, they just happen to be there, but the
point of rockets is to explore them!" -- Kai Yeves

As you can imagine I sat there for a moment thinking 'Ooooohkaaay,.... where do I start?'

However, he was soon put right with a simple discussion about atmosphere, and what a lack of it ACTUALLY MEANS .... including making parachutes just dead weight and useless. We then went on to discuss gravity and how 1/6 G makes a lot of difference to amount of fuel, thrust required etc.

It was quite interesting having to go back to very basic principles at times to explain things.

A later discussion moved to the photos and shadows, so I got him to refer to some of his own photos, and he soon began to understand that! He had even found the 'no stars' "argument" by now but referring him to try to take photos at night which included stars, we soon sorted that one.

It is always frustrating when we see people on the 'net who are so entrenched that they are never prepared to try stuff and actually TEST it for themselves.

Needless to say I showed him how to investigate and try it out for himself, not just believe everything he read on the internet ...

It took time, over about two weeks, but from being very skeptical at first (due to some stuff he had read) he came to understand what an amazing scientific and engineering adventure and achievement the moon landings were.

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The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!) but rather, 'hmm.... that's funny...'
- Isaac Asimov

"Entering the lottery defines you as a gambler; supporting SETI defines you as a human ... with passion and hope for the future." - Cosmopaul67 - 28th Jan 2010

Are we alone in the Universe? Are we the only intelligent life? Who knows? But the universe is so BIG, it somehow seems such a waste of space if we are ....

You know, I actually bookmark such "success stories". It's nice to know that some people can be reasoned with.

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(As you can guess from the location, English is not my native language.)

Yes, he was skeptical, but not a CT believer. If he had read a lot more CT stuff before we began (what I hope was) our reasoned discussion, who knows?

Anyway, yes, put it down to a success. That kind of discussion when you really have to go back to science basics can be quite helpful for your own understanding!

It also makes me realise just how much our (UK) education system seems to have lost since I was at school. His education was more than 20 years after mine!

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The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!) but rather, 'hmm.... that's funny...'
- Isaac Asimov

"Entering the lottery defines you as a gambler; supporting SETI defines you as a human ... with passion and hope for the future." - Cosmopaul67 - 28th Jan 2010

Are we alone in the Universe? Are we the only intelligent life? Who knows? But the universe is so BIG, it somehow seems such a waste of space if we are ....

Ok, I have now found the post in question, because I did post about it a couple of years ago in a different thread : HB quote of the day

... and I had forgotten his SECOND mention of the parachute (which is true!)

__________________
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!) but rather, 'hmm.... that's funny...'
- Isaac Asimov

"Entering the lottery defines you as a gambler; supporting SETI defines you as a human ... with passion and hope for the future." - Cosmopaul67 - 28th Jan 2010

Are we alone in the Universe? Are we the only intelligent life? Who knows? But the universe is so BIG, it somehow seems such a waste of space if we are ....

Someone made a video showing a feather and a hammer falling at the same speed, which looked really impressive until you watched carefully and noticed that the "feather" bounced.

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Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

Thanks, Skyfire!

-- Jeff

.

Oh dear! What have I said?!


Do I take it you teach in the UK?

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The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!) but rather, 'hmm.... that's funny...'
- Isaac Asimov

"Entering the lottery defines you as a gambler; supporting SETI defines you as a human ... with passion and hope for the future." - Cosmopaul67 - 28th Jan 2010

Are we alone in the Universe? Are we the only intelligent life? Who knows? But the universe is so BIG, it somehow seems such a waste of space if we are ....

No, what did I say? Or not say that you expected me to say?

-- Jeff, still in Minneapolis

.

Actually, such an experiment was shown on the DVD 'Darkmoon' which is widely available. You don't have to be on the Moon to recreate the experiment.

And as far as this guys article goes - I thoroughly enjoyed it. He summarised really well and pretty much showed up a lot of the regular posters on this forum as being wrong.

As he says - no original footage or blueprints are available, and the footage seen by the World was hardly 'live' now was it?

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There are several of us who do believe in UFOs and who have had occasion to see a UFO on the ground, or from an airplane. There was only one occasion from space which may have been a UFO."

Gordon Cooper, Astronaut (Mercury-Atlas 9, May 15, 1963; Gemini 5, August 21, 1965), Col. USAF (Ret); letter to Granada's Ambassador Griffith at the United Nations, November 9, 1978

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk - Europe's biggest UFO database.

Oh yes you do. The 'recreation' on that video fails by virtue of having the feather released point down, or in other words, in its most aerodynamic orientation. Had the experiment been repeated holding the feather horizontally, as it was in the Apollo 15 broadcast, the result would have been very different.

What a load of rubbish. The guy argues from incredulity and makes so many fundamental errors you have to wonder what he actually knows about anything.

Again, rubbish. Original footage and blueprints are available if you know where to look and what you should reasonably expect to find.

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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.

CosmicDave...Will you be addressing the questions you left unanswered last time you were here??...or is this just a "flyby" to take "potshots" at posters?

If the latter than don't bother.

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

Can you present evidence that posters here were wrong?

Consider that a direct question.

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

I believe I've seen the experiment you speak of. It most certainty was NOT recreated in "Darkmoon" and has been discredited many times. I believe it was done by David Percy, and he (IMHO), just like Bart Sibrel, is nothing more than another uneducated hoax nut-bar seeking attention.

In his so-called "recreation", the only way he could get the feather to drop at the same rate as the hammer was to turn the feather longways, or at a right angle to the ground. There is NO WAY on Earth, in an atmosphere to have the feather drop at the same rate with its length parallel to the ground, as it was in the Apollo 15 experiment!

You don't have to be on the Moon to recreate the experiment.

Percy didn't recreate the experiment. He approximated it. He doesn't get points for that. And now apparently he's off hiding in France now so he doesn't have to listen to people questioning his findings.

...pretty much showed up a lot of the regular posters on this forum as being wrong.

And then retracted it. All he did was call us names and say, "Nuh-uh, I know differently." Since you don't have any qualifications in this area, I don't imagine why you think you know whether he was on target or not. Specific rebuttals were given.

I invited David McGowan to discuss his findings with me personally -- including those aimed directly at me. Not only did he refuse my invitation for a discussion, he called me childish names and told me to do something with myself. (I'm sure you can guess what.)

Now is that really the kind of author you want to put on your pedestal? I go to great lengths to remain accountable for my public statements. He does not.

As he says - no original footage...

Wrong.

...or blueprints are available

Wrong. What have you personally done to locate any of this material? David Percy didn't look. And since both you and David McGowan simply crib mindlessly from his material, you don't know any better yourself.

...the footage seen by the World was hardly 'live' now was it?

In what way wasn't it live?

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"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

...the footage seen by the World was hardly 'live' now was it?
In what way wasn't it live?

This is a new claim to me, too. Please elaborate, Cosmicdave.

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I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them. -- Jimmy Hoffa

It was on delay, at least. Does that count as "hardly live"? If you're being a stickler instead of realistic, sure.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Thanks for the correction. I think I knew that but then re-forgot it.

Ignore me ... I've been out on a brewery trip .... [homer mode] mmmmmmmmm beer! [/homer mode]

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The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!) but rather, 'hmm.... that's funny...'
- Isaac Asimov

"Entering the lottery defines you as a gambler; supporting SETI defines you as a human ... with passion and hope for the future." - Cosmopaul67 - 28th Jan 2010

Are we alone in the Universe? Are we the only intelligent life? Who knows? But the universe is so BIG, it somehow seems such a waste of space if we are ....

See above ..... i seem to have got coplettley rong end of stick... and tiping gone to pot ....

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The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!) but rather, 'hmm.... that's funny...'
- Isaac Asimov

"Entering the lottery defines you as a gambler; supporting SETI defines you as a human ... with passion and hope for the future." - Cosmopaul67 - 28th Jan 2010

Are we alone in the Universe? Are we the only intelligent life? Who knows? But the universe is so BIG, it somehow seems such a waste of space if we are ....

And Clarke's paper that introduces the geostationary orbit is from 1945.

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‘To those who regard “crime fiction” as some sacred icon which must follow a rigid formula, I will always be the man who writes 18-syllable haiku.’Trying to make sense of computers, The Error Log.