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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by realitydesign View Post
...you can choose to believe it or not.
You keep saying this. It's not a matter of belief, or "wanting" something to be true. It's a matter of credible evidence. The people you have chosen to believe have no credible evidence to offer.

Quote:
You need to prove he is lying...
Why in the world would you think that? The burden of proof lies with those who make the extraordinary claims, not the mainstream who questions them.
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Because the larger a feature is in affine terms, the less likely it is to be an engineered structure. Sturm admits this. Yet his argument simply sidesteps the problem.
Well, Norman Bergrun, a man who most likely has more credentials and has done more for NACA/NASA than anybody on this board and in the general community, wrote a book presenting his case that there are EMV (electro-magnetic vehicles) in orbit around Saturn that are likely 30,000 miles long.

That's some big stuff!

The point is human expectations shouldn't be the crux of conceptualizing this stuff.

We, the race that have invented means to wipe ourselves out in 60 minutes
  #93 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
You keep saying this. It's not a matter of belief, or "wanting" something to be true. It's a matter of credible evidence. The people you have chosen to believe have no credible evidence to offer.



Why in the world would you think that? The burden of proof lies with those who make the extraordinary claims, not the mainstream who questions them.
Like I said the memos are starting to surface, mentioning the people and events he talks about.
  #94 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Let us examine Allan Sturm's work on this page:

http://www.lunomaly.com/en/other-ima...ellanious.html

The first section contains four photographs. The bottommost is an original image. Moving up, we find the same image desaturated presumably to obtain density information. Then we have a pair of detail images taken from roughly the center of the source images.

The first error Sturm has committed is to have failed to control for the obvious chromatic errors in the source digital image. This is an artifact of the scan that produced it from the original transparency. It will not produce a usable density map.

The source image displays coarse spatial resolution. It does not support the resolution at which Sturm has made his interpretation.

It also displays coarse, stepwise luminosity information. This is usually the result of an uncalibrated scan, or possibly exposure problems in the original transparency. However in Sturm's massaged copies, smooth gradients are suddenly available. There is no explanation for why that information suddenly appears when the appropriate detail is clearly blown out in the source image.

The problem is that those mysteriously created gradients then become contour cues. That coupled with the loss of spatial detail drives Sturm's interpretation of objects such as spoked wheels, that are illustrated in his annotated detail.

Ordinarily an interpreter would apply global illumination cues and automated (not subjective) contour-extraction techniques here. Instead Sturm has simply drawn lines on his heavily massaged image based on his imagination.

The red annotations at the top unfairly regularize structures. In one case the spatial resolution does not support Sturm's interpretation of a foreshorted straight line and right angle. If you return to the larger image, there is no supportive alignment with the global environment. Further, Sturm unfairly regularizes features that are clearly not so, even at that coarse resolution. That is obvious cheating.

The orange annotations in the center merely subjectively outline interpretations of contour. They do not fit any spatially coherent structure or arrangement. In the case of the "wrench" shaped feature, Sturm has simply made that up -- it does not appear in his source images.

The red annotations present the spoke-and-wheel interpretation, but again there's no case for a coherent structure. The "contours" arise simply from Sturm's misguided requantization and smoothing of coarsely discrete data.

Elsewhere on the site Sturm gives an example of a detailed aerial photograph that has been coarsely resampled and then filtered back out to a higher pixel resolution. He argues that it is still valid to perform interpretations on the filtered image. This is not correct. The validity of his interpretation depends on presuming the fine detail that is lost does not contradict the interpretation. This is what we saw with the Cydonia photographs. The filtered image with low spatial resolution conveyed a sense of regularity that was simply not valid when more detailed photographs were obtained.

Sturm simply falls into the same trap as have all prior novices: he ignores the perceptual effects of the smoothing that is inherent to both digital and photochemical photography. One cannot presume the absence of contradictory detail just because one cannot see it. This is elementary photographic interpretation.

The next section is entitled "Some miscellaneous early finds."

Judging from the subject matter and the inclusion of a reseau fiducial, the first photo is from an Apollo lunar surface EVA. It appears motion-blurred along a path inclined roughly 40 degrees to the right of vertical.

No interpretation is presented, but we can surmise that the object at the center is the one Sturm purports to be interesting. At first glance it may seem to be a cylinder protruding from the regolith, with an inset cap. However, we see that the long edge of the "cylinder" does not continue, and we see that the "cap" is not sufficiently regular to be an elliptical foreshortening of a circle. It fails the test of uniformity.

The following photo is simply a blob with no context.

The third photo in this section appears to be a highly-expanded excerpt from an orbital image. There is clear evidence of smoothing and interpolation. This will naturally introduce a false sense of regularity.

It appears Sturm has attempted to connect the two dark patches in the center as a single object that is punctuated by the somewhat vertical feature. In fact the two dark patches are unrelated; they are individual shadows of two roughly parallel ridges. Because the spatial quantization and subsequent smoothing has eliminated the detail in these shadows, they are incorrectly assumed to be smooth-edged, round, and perhaps connected.

The next section entitled "Lunar tumbleweed with grid" presents Sturm's isolation of a feature which he colors green in his annotated version.

With absolutely no argument or justification, Sturm seems to claim that this feature is standing up from the surface. He simply mistakes coloration as contour. This clearly violates his admonition to "look through" the photograhph, since he has made no confirming argument that this "tumbleweed" is in the geometric configuration he seems to purport.

The next section is entitled "Another grid example" and purports to show a regular square pattern of crater-like features. Presumably uniformly or regularly spaced features were also to be seen in the prior "tumbleweed" image, but I failed to find any.

There is a huge difference between objects that only seem somewhat regularly spaced at first glance and objects that are indeed regularly spaced according to a simple pattern and measured at an appropriate tolerance. Here no attempt is made to establish that rigor. No consideration of surface contour occurs. No deference is made to the low angle from which these features are photographed, which would tend to obscure gross differences in distance along the line of sight.

The final section "Interesting geometry in Lunar Orbiter Image" is the coup de grace. The feature Sturm has isolated in his insets is simply the extension of an imaging artifact that is clearly visible above it in the dark portion of the image.

In short, Allan Sturm is clearly an amateur at photographic interpretation. He commits nearly the all the errors an untrained amateur would be expected to commit. This "analysis" is worthless.
I never sent anyone to this page.
  #95 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 07:43 PM
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Hello all!

I just received some sort of penalty for not answering questions. I apologize, I am trying my best to keep up. If I don't answer a question instantaneously, I'm sorry, I may have gone to get some food or to the bathroom perhaps.

Message boards are always fun for me but this one seems very strict and many people are all fired up and agitated.

Again, I'm trying to answer questions as best I can, if I get another penalty I might get kicked out or whatever so farewell if that happens.

Peace and love to all
  #96 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 07:44 PM
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Besides, why even bring up a point about nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman who does himself believe in the UFO coverup?
What, really? The point is that even someone who believes it doesn't believe in the credibility of your cited expert, which means that it's not just knee-jerk dismissal on our part. Do you really not get that?
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 07:48 PM
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What, really? The point is that even someone who believes it doesn't believe in the credibility of your cited expert, which means that it's not just knee-jerk dismissal on our part. Do you really not get that?
It's still moot, don't you get that?
  #98 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 07:52 PM
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Every single image is labeled in the ebook. There is no hiding of anything.
I'm not going to buy his ebook just to validate the data. He's advertising it on the Web so he's is hiding it from public consumption, unless you pay him money.

Secondly, he is in violation of NASA's free image use copyright policy, as that states quite -clearly- that the NASA source for the image must be credited, including on the web.

Sorry, both of these things tell me it's a flim-flam just to get at some money.
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  #99 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 07:52 PM
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I never sent anyone to this page.
Huh???

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If you look at Mr. Sturm's credentials you will realizes that he has you covered and beyond.
You can't very well complain when you are the one who brought up the notion of Strum's credentials.

Sheesh...
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  #100 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 07:53 PM
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Well, Norman Bergrun, a man who most likely has more credentials and has done more for NACA/NASA than anybody on this board and in the general community, wrote a book presenting his case that there are EMV (electro-magnetic vehicles) in orbit around Saturn that are likely 30,000 miles long.

That's some big stuff!
Yeah, several times the size of the earth. Big enough to see with a simple pair of binoculars (maybe even the naked eye). Amateur astronomers everywhere would see that, but somehow Bergrun is the only one who knows? And you believe that?

  #101 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 07:54 PM
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I'm not going to buy his ebook just to validate the data. He's advertising it on the Web so he's is hiding it from public consumption, unless you pay him money.

Secondly, he is in violation of NASA's free image use copyright policy, as that states quite -clearly- that the NASA source for the image must be credited, including on the web.

Sorry, both of these things tell me it's a flim-flam just to get at some money.
I think what he is asking for is a donation you choose the price.
  #102 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 07:54 PM
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but somehow Bergrun is the only one who knows?
Shhh... it's a secret
  #103 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 07:55 PM
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It's still moot, don't you get that?
Why do you find it so difficult to answer simple qustions?
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 07:58 PM
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I think what he is asking for is a donation you choose the price.
Donations are optional, having to name your own price is still paying for it.

And doesn't get around the fact that the person is not properly crediting the images they do show on the web. Of course that would mean people could find the unaltered versions...
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  #105 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 08:06 PM
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The sample images on Allan's site that I linked up look NOTHING like that very nice rock spread.
The point, which you seem to be deliberately ignoring, was that natural pocesses can produce what look like artificial structures, and without the help of Photoshop either. Also that if you were to look at a large enough geographical area you can find natural formations that look manmade. Therefore I ask what, beside a few manipulated images, do you have by way of evidence to support your suggestion, and in the context of this thread it is your suggestion, that there are artificial structures on the moon?
  #106 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 08:36 PM
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...
Saying 'nobody' gives him credit is meaningless.

Not in the least. Corso's claims have been examined at length and largely rejected. It is indeed salient that people predisposed to accept his claims do not generally do so, for reasons they are happy to share.

He has the credentials and the friendships...

Or so he claims. Later investigation has proven that much of it was exaggerated.

You need to prove he is lying, do that...

Search for his name on this forum.

Besides, why even bring up a point about nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman who does himself believe in the UFO coverup?

Because his rejection of Corso cannot be explained by an ideological difference of opinion. Friedman is predisposed to accept Corso but rejects him based on the lack of merit in his evidence.
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  #107 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 08:37 PM
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I think what he is asking for is a donation you choose the price.
I choose to donate zero dollars. Where's my book?
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  #108 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 08:46 PM
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I never sent anyone to this page.
False.

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There are plenty of examples on the site that are free, just click on the main pic there with the wheels.
Now upon your return will you kindly address my commentary, which is rather disastrous for Allan Sturm's claims to expertise.
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 08:51 PM
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... it's a famous Irish landmark:
http://www.giantscausewayireland.com/
Now that's the entirely natural product of geological forces, yet it appears quite artificial ...
Thanks; I was hoping others would come up with examples of what I was saying in post 60. I'm sure there are plenty.

(As he points off in the distance and utters "v'ger")
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  #110 (permalink)  
Old 06-November-2009, 08:54 PM
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Due to an accumulation of infraction points, realitydesign won't be able to respond for 3 days. Thread closed until his return.

realitydesign,

When you return, if you wish participate in this discussion according to the rules, PM a moderator or better yet, report this post to request the thread be reopened.
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