Rules discussion

[01101001]

Originally Posted by Robinson

So you don't know the answer either?

Originally Posted by Robinson

Wiki images are free to use, and bandwidth is not a problem there either. Or is it?

Is that the question?

[hhEb09'1]

Originally Posted by 01101001

Is that the question?

That's the only eroteme in his post, so presumably yes that was the question. And I think you did answer it--so you knew the answer.

[PetersCreek]

I knew that.

[mahesh]

I would have thought that, that was a given and wouldn't've needed a formal written declaration.

How else would moderators moderate, if they can't speak with each other.
Oh well. Anyway we've covered this ground before.

Thank you, Admin / Mods for making it crystal-clear!


It's like in cricket. When a stump does a cartwheel for a few yards...
there is no doubt, that the batsman is out!

http://content.cricinfo.com/wiveng20...ge/389700.html
A rare, exciting picture, Pietersen at the receiving end!

[geonuc]

Just to be extra crystal-clear, mahesh, this isn't a clarification of Rule 5, it is a change. Unauthorized sharing of PMs by moderators was forbidden by Rule 5 prior to this change.

[Buttercup]

Remind me never to become a Mod at this forum, if asked.

[ToSeek]

Originally Posted by geonuc

Just to be extra crystal-clear, mahesh, this isn't a clarification of Rule 5, it is a change. Unauthorized sharing of PMs by moderators was forbidden by Rule 5 prior to this change.

But we did it anyway, assuming that members would have mahesh's assumption about this special case. However, one member, with some justification since it's not explicit, took considerable umbrage at his PM to a moderator being shared, so we needed to make it explicit.

[Tucson_Tim]

I also assumed that a PM sent to a Mod (other than than a "Hi, how are ya?" msg) would be shared with the other Mods, if necessary. How else can they do their job? And I have to believe that "discussing a member's behavior" is something the Mods have to do quite often.

[Disinfo Agent]

I've actually had a moderator ask me whether he could share a PM from me with other moderators. I said yes.

The only case where this may become sensitive is if someone PMs a moderator to complain about another moderator...

[Tinaa]

We've all had complaints made about us. It is part of the job. I'd like to know about complaints about me. I have been known to have bad days so the complainer may have a legit gripe.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by Disinfo Agent

The only case where this may become sensitive is if someone PMs a moderator to complain about another moderator...

That is a legit concern, though hopefully a rare situation. I can see several ways the member can deal with that:
- PM one or several moderators (other than the one being complained about) and say specifically that you do not wish this shared with the moderator you are complaining about
- Use the red report triangle to report the problem. Yes, the moderator in question will see the report, but so will every other moderator and administrator.
- PM the administrators (ToSeek and antoniseb) and/or the owners of the board (the BA and Fraser).

[ToSeek]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Remind me never to become a Mod at this forum, if asked.

Squashing spammers is kind of fun if there aren't too many of them. On the other hand, reading a five-page thread to figure out who said what to whom that eventually leads into inappropriate behavior - and then trying to figure out what to do about it - most certainly isn't.

[Gillianren]

Originally Posted by Tucson_Tim

I also assumed that a PM sent to a Mod (other than than a "Hi, how are ya?" msg) would be shared with the other Mods, if necessary.

Likewise. Now, I, too, received a "do you mind if we share this with other mods?" response, but to me, forum business is implicitly different than the private conversations not about forum business that I've had with several of the moderators.

[Jeff Root]

I can easily imagine situations ranging from "Sheesh, of COURSE you can
share it! Why are you bothering to ask?" to "What on Earth were you
thinking???" The problem, of course, is when one party thinks it is the
first situation and the other party thinks it is the second. Some private
mail is pointless unless it is passed on to others, and some becomes
worse than pointless by being passed on to others.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Fazor]

I avoid the problem by trying not to say something about someone behind their back, if I wouldn't want that person to know I said it. Though, I very seldom message someone in private. I use the "profile messages" feature, but that's hardly private, as anyone can read those as well.

Even that time I sent Swift that PM about how I hate the way ToSeek posts ... oh, wait. He didn't tell you about that message? Strike that.

...yes, that's a joke. I have no qualms with ToSeek, nor have I complained to Swift about anyone. Not that I remember anyway.

[Josh]

If a member has a problem with a moderator, I think the best thing to do is go straight to an admin. I'd think that the admin would bring it up with the whole moderator team and keep the member who sent the report abreast of what was going on. In previous situations like that, the mod in question has had the right of reply to the accusations but is pretty much recused from the decision making process.

[mahesh]

Originally Posted by Swift

That is a legit concern, though hopefully a rare situation. I can see several ways the member can deal with that:
- PM one or several moderators (other than the one being complained about) and say specifically that you do not wish this shared with the moderator you are complaining about
- Use the red report triangle to report the problem. Yes, the moderator in question will see the report, but so will every other moderator and administrator.
- PM the administrators (ToSeek and antoniseb) and/or the owners of the board (the BA and Fraser).

Swift Hi....

Your suggestion is logical / obvious. I appreciate the extra clarity

It would have to be a really churlish, delinquent BAUTzen, who would be unable to resolve a situation / event with a BAUT moderator; and who would then, have a gripe enough about it to complain.

I know, I know, we are dealing with humans / fallibility.

Have a nice day, my friends, y'all!

edit:
Yes, Josh...

...the mod in question has had the right of reply to the accusations but is pretty much recused from the decision making process.

as happened fairly recently......first time at BAUT...and I hope, not to see a repetition for a looong looong time...

[Whirlpool]

I for one expect PM's shouldn't be shared with anyone regardless if its a Mod or a Member.
Seeking a permission or a suggestion from the person involved to share the PM to others is appropriate.

If suddenly somebody told me that my conversations over PM wth a certain person has been forwarded to another person , I will feel disrespected and betrayed .

Wouldn't you feel the same way ?

[mugaliens]

Originally Posted by Disinfo Agent

I've actually had a moderator ask me whether he could share a PM from me with other moderators. I said yes.

Same here. I think this is appropriate, and has been the modus operandi at numerous other forums I've frequented, modded, or admined over the decades, with the only exception being a PM to a moderator that clearly requires additional eyes on (explicit sexual requests, threats, indications of harming self or others, etc.). Even extremely rude behavior, however, doesn't cut the mustard, as all a mod need to is to temp ban the user, citing "cussed me out in a PM." The standard would be preserved.

This defacto standard isn't limited to bulletin boards - it exists throughout our society, whether it's "behind closed doors" at the office, a "protected communication" in government and military circles, or simply talking with a friend - there is a reasonable expectation of privacy.

I would question how it is possible to expect forum members to comply with a rule when the forum leaders are either unwilling to do so! Certainly, one can always raise the "do as I say, not as I do" flag, but that's a line directly out of the Poor Parenting Handbook, and not acceptable behavior from those who run a widely respected forum - at least not without serious risk of reducing that level of respect.

Now! I'll bet you thought this was a rant against the recent Rule 5 modification, didn't you?

No!

It's great! I like it!

However, private messages to a moderator about forum administration issues are an exception to this rule.

and

A PM to one is a PM to all, at least when it comes to official business.

That's it! That's the only exception that's mentioned - and by mentioning the exception (administration issues / official business), it implies that unless a PM meets this exception, the mods are bound by the same standards of not sharing PMs as are the rest of us.

Sweet.

ToSeek - I think you nailed it.

[Whirlpool]

Originally Posted by mugaliens

Same here. I think this is appropriate, and has been the modus operandi at numerous other forums I've frequented, modded, or admined over the decades, with the only exception being a PM to a moderator that clearly requires additional eyes on (explicit sexual requests, threats, indications of harming self or others, etc.). Even extremely rude behavior, however, doesn't cut the mustard, as all a mod need to is to temp ban the user, citing "cussed me out in a PM." The standard would be preserved.

This defacto standard isn't limited to bulletin boards - it exists throughout our society, whether it's "behind closed doors" at the office, a "protected communication" in government and military circles, or simply talking with a friend - there is a reasonable expectation of privacy.

I would question how it is possible to expect forum members to comply with a rule when the forum leaders are either unwilling to do so! Certainly, one can always raise the "do as I say, not as I do" flag, but that's a line directly out of the Poor Parenting Handbook, and not acceptable behavior from those who run a widely respected forum - at least not without serious risk of reducing that level of respect.

Now! I'll bet you thought this was a rant against the recent Rule 5 modification, didn't you?

No!

It's great! I like it!

However, private messages to a moderator about forum administration issues are an exception to this rule.

and

A PM to one is a PM to all, at least when it comes to official business.

That's it! That's the only exception that's mentioned - and by mentioning the exception (administration issues / official business), it implies that unless a PM meets this exception, the mods are bound by the same standards of not sharing PMs as are the rest of us.

Sweet.

ToSeek - I think you nailed it.

Very well put Mugs.

And I do hope that this will be followed and observed Strictly?

How can you prove it? It's a PM!

[mahesh]

Originally Posted by Disinfo Agent

I've actually had a moderator ask me whether he could share a PM from me with other moderators. I said yes.

The only case where this may become sensitive is if someone PMs a moderator to complain about another moderator...

Exactly as Gillian says happened to her...

Goes to show one, that the BAUT mods are considerate, decent, fair etc etc etc., I've said many a times.....despite the wrong impression alleged on this board.

But I'd put this down to, not appreciating BAUT ethos, personality differences....

i think i better zip up, before 'rattling the cage' any more...

[Jeff Root]

Originally Posted by Josh

If a member has a problem with a moderator, I think the best thing to
do is go straight to an admin. I'd think that the admin would bring it
up with the whole moderator team and keep the member who sent the
report abreast of what was going on. In previous situations like that,
the mod in question has had the right of reply to the accusations but
is pretty much recused from the decision making process.

A concise statement and it appears to cover everything. Excellent!

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Buttercup]

Originally Posted by ToSeek

Squashing spammers is kind of fun if there aren't too many of them. On the other hand, reading a five-page thread to figure out who said what to whom that eventually leads into inappropriate behavior - and then trying to figure out what to do about it - most certainly isn't.

Five years ago I was offered Mod of a large message board. I turned it down. Saw too much of this seeming "I don't understand the rules" attitudes. That forum had only 4 or 5 hard-set rules. Either those "confused" people were genuine dumbbells or it was passive-aggressive game playing [methinks it was the latter]. Or it's someone trying and trying to create a loophole or think THEY are immune to the rule or just don't see they are guilty of an infraction.

For every simple/straightforward matter there's two dozen people who just don't get it.

I don't need the aggravation. But kudos to those who hold the line.

[Tucson_Tim]

Originally Posted by Whirlpool

I for one expect PM's shouldn't be shared with anyone regardless if its a Mod or a Member.

I received a PM from a member that was one big ad hom (very colorful language ) and you can bet that I forwarded it to a Mod. Just because it's "private" doesn't give someone the right to say whatever they want to me. (Well, maybe they have the right but I also have the right to report it.)

[mugaliens]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

That forum had only 4 or 5 hard-set rules...

...

For every simple/straightforward matter there's two dozen people who just don't get it.

4-5 rules...

For the better part of a couple of decades I've worked in various positions where the binders containing the various rules governing the actions of myself and others occupy more than two feet of shelf space, and I and many others are responsible for each and every rule.

Only 4-5 rules, and they "just don't get it?"

I don't get it...

[Whirlpool]

Originally Posted by Tucson_Tim

I received a PM from a member that was one big ad hom (very colorful language ) and you can bet that I forwarded it to a Mod. Just because it's "private" doesn't give someone the right to say whatever they want to me. (Well, maybe they have the right but I also have the right to report it.)

It is Private and a Someone has the right to say whatever they want. With your example , you have given the person the right to talk to you over PM, and I believe a lot of people here does that , talking in their own style on PM's, including Slang words .
If he had given you and Ad hom , yes you HAVE the right. But in other conversations DONE over PM , sharing with other people WITHOUT your permission is Not Appropriate.

If you have confided something with someone over PM and you found out that he forwarded it to his other friends , wouldn't you feel Violated?

[Van Rijn]

Originally Posted by Whirlpool

It is Private and a Someone has the right to say whatever they want.

That's a very dangerous assumption, not just regarding PMs, but also email and other pseudo-private messaging. I'd recommend that people always think about what they send. Always.

[Van Rijn]

Originally Posted by mugaliens

That's it! That's the only exception that's mentioned - and by mentioning the exception (administration issues / official business), it implies that unless a PM meets this exception, the mods are bound by the same standards of not sharing PMs as are the rest of us.

The one issue I see is that there might not always be a meeting of minds on what is official business and what isn't. A person should not assume that just because they think their PM isn't about official business that the mod will always think the way they do.

[slang]

Originally Posted by Whirlpool

It is Private and a Someone has the right to say whatever they want. With your example , you have given the person the right to talk to you over PM, and I believe a lot of people here does that , talking in their own style on PM's, including Slang words .

Phffft!

If you have confided something with someone over PM and you found out that he forwarded it to his other friends , wouldn't you feel Violated?

Violated? No. But I would feel that my trust in that person was misplaced. And, as Van Rijn indicated, in the medium of the conversation. On the internet, never ever assume full privacy, not even when rules guarantee it. For example, someone might guess one of the admin's password, and publish their email. In such a case not only the admin's privacy is compromised, but also that of everyone who sent him stuff that ended up in his inbox. Not to mention the many ways that one's one PC might be compromised.

FWIW, unless it's clear from the contents (yes, that's ambiguous), or by clear request to keep it private, I assume that a PM sent to a mod or admin concerning the forum may be discussed between them. Like in a restaurant, if I tell a waiter that my soup is cold again, I expect that to be discussed with the chefs, or a supervisor. If I have a complaint about the behavior of the guests sitting on the next table, I expect the waiter to act on it, or to notify his boss. OTOH, if I knew a waiter personally, and I confide in him that I fancy the new girl at the bar, I don't expect him to blabber about it. Generally, I expect the staff to use their judgement.

Funny though, so much discussion about a rule change that everyone so far agrees with.

[Whirlpool]

Originally Posted by Van Rijn

That's a very dangerous assumption, not just regarding PMs, but also email and other pseudo-private messaging. I'd recommend that people always think about what they send. Always.

It's not an assumption but a Reality.

What I'm trying to say is about the Private Messaging HERE and in response to Tim . If I have something to say to a Mod or a Member , I know I have the Personal Resposibility to how I will compose my PM or email to the person, if that person is I "personally know of , a friend , or someone whom I only know here in BAUT.

Our communication VARIES on every person we PM. And we can say whatever we wanted to say and HOW we will say it to the person we chose to PM or email .