New Policies Regarding Against the Mainstream section

[Gillianren]

"Alternative to the mainstream" implies that both are equally right. Obviously, this is untrue.

[Coldcreation]

Originally Posted by Gillianren

"Alternative to the mainstream" implies that both are equally right. Obviously, this is untrue.

Good point. Both could be wrong.

The question is, which (an alternative model, or one of the mainstream models) best fits the empirical data. All alternative models need to be confronted with evidence that is used to support the standard model, so the standard model in not out-of-bounds.

That is what I see as the main impetus for posting an idea (no matter how developed, thought the more developed the better) and discussing it here at ATM.

Examples to consider: ATM, (Against The Machine), (A Theory of Miracles), (Almost The Mainstream), (Against Teller Machines), (Against The Mugwump), (Afraid of The Mossad), (Alternative To Mythical), (Anonomous Theory Misconstrude ), (Against The Multi-Million dollar book deal), (Alternative to the Molotov cocktail model), (Avoid The Metaphysical), (Art and The Mystagogue), (Anxious for The Meltdown), (Aternative Theories Marginalized), (Against The Moooo000oooo).

CC

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by Bogie

...

Simply tell me that BAUT is not the place for my kind of idea development and I will try to find somewhere else (though I have no idea where). Please come right on out and say that I am a typical culprit and I should go if I can’t do any better than I have.

I'm talking to all of you. Am I the typical culprit?

There has been talk of attracting science professionals. The fixes to ATM are supposed to help in doing so. To be labeled a “Professional” though is to be more than just employed in the sciences. It implies that there is a level of responsibility and character that goes along with the territory.

I call upon any professionals here to address my situation and to deal with me as you’re professional credentials imply you should.

My situation is not unlike many non-professionals that have used BAUT over the years and find themselves marginalized. Ignoring the ATM thread is understandable if you take offense at non-professionals using them as I have. Fine. But on a personal basis when a non-professional addresses the community someone should have the courtesy to step forward and say to me what needs to be said.

Are there no true professionals of responsibility and character who have the GUTs () to put me in my place, or point me in the right track, or just suggest what I can do with my ideas (could you ask for a bigger opening?). I know it can be done without bad words. Actually it is an opportunity for those of you who are holding back to be witty and clever with your words. Go for it.

[Moose]

Originally Posted by Bogie

Actually it is an opportunity for those of you who are holding back to be witty and clever with your words. Go for it.

I can't directly answer your question as our pathes haven't really crossed before now.

I can say that the fact that you're genuinely concerned about not causing problems for the mods or community at large is, in my experience, a pretty good sign. More so if you've been listening. If nobody's mentionned anything about your behavior, you're probably doing just fine. Believe me, if you were causing problems, someone would have mentionned it. Try not to stress yourself over it.

[madman]

just popping back in for a sec to say a few things.

first off...to make sure that any readers seeing posts by "magman" (or any such similar names) do not confuse them with mine....(at least one poster has done this in the past)

magman appears to be a new poster with similar interests (and clearly a different writing style).


*********************************

also i just wanted to allay Gillianren's concerns that i would go around claiming that "mainstream had failed".

i actually haven't conversed on the subject since i was told that it was suddenly outside the scope of this site....and if i were to continue arguing the point...i would prefer to do it here....if possible.

[galacsi]

Want to be positive after all :

Here I dont treat the problems of obvious breach of rules like spamming , insulting etc ... i want just to add my view on the normal life of treads ,not only ATM & CT but any thread , because limits are difficults to put and it will be an obvious ruse to disguise an ATM or CT thread in a astronomy a or AQ thread.


My proposition :

1. Each thread has an Owner : the guy who started it.

2. If the owner is not satisfied with the thread and the thread is more than a month , he ask a moderator to close it by a public post in the tread and a PM and the moderator must comply.
Variant : If the moderator want the the tread to go on , thre is a month delay then if the owner still want the threead close the moderator must comply.

3. If a moderator or administator is not happy with a thread , too long , hijacked, .... does not like it for x reason , and the tread is longer than a month he notify the owner (public post in threead and PM) for closing it . If the owner does not want the thread closed he got a month delay to finish his messaging and the thread is close.

4. If the owner does not answer in a short delay , moderator do as he want.

5 . The owner of a locked thread can reopen it if and only if he close it voluntary , (Final post being proof of it )

6. Anybody can reopen a New thread on a close subject if and only asking BAUT (Moderator or admin ) and been given a go.
it is the moderator who judge the pertinence of the demand.

7. If you reopen a new thread on the same subject of a previous thread of yours without justification (I.e nex ideas , new facts ) and without asking BAUT (Moderator , administrator ) the moderator Can the close the thread and Ban you between 1 week and 1 month the first time.
You are permanently banned the second time.

My aim with these points is to give moderators an official way of controlling the forum in a much more supple way that this guillotine one month delay.

Other points of interest :

There also must a way to control some posters and i mean debunkers more than often. Many of these guys add nothing to the discussion. Is it possible with Bulletin to organise "closed thread" with just 2,3,4 at the max debatters and a moderator to regulate the show.? (I.e giving people right to answer , preventing too much posts asking precisions etc ....

So that were my € 0.02 on the subject

Regards

[HenrikOlsen]

The problem with this suggestion is that it actually requires even more moderator work than the old way, and that was too much.

Part of the beauty of the 30 day limit is that this can be enforced automatically by the forum software, without any intervention at all by moderators.

Incidentally this is a technical argument against the idea of using a lunar month, since the software requires a rewrite to work in other than whole days.

[galacsi]

Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen

The problem with this suggestion is that it actually requires even more moderator work than the old way, and that was too much.

Part of the beauty of the 30 day limit is that this can be enforced automatically by the forum software, without any intervention at all by moderators.

Incidentally this is a technical argument against the idea of using a lunar month, since the software requires a rewrite to work in other than whole days.

As it is impossible to explore a new idea in 30 days ,and I know it , because i have posted in the EU and expanding earth threads , it is clearly the end of ATM threads.

As of moderators burned out , it just they want to shut down a thread or ban a poster and they cannot because the ATM poster is more than their match.

So , this new rule rule of 30 days just a way of closing the ATM section without saying it.

[HenrikOlsen]

Originally Posted by galacsi

As it is impossible to explore a new idea in 30 days ,and I know it , because i have posted in the EU and expanding earth threads , it is clearly the end of ATM threads.

As of moderators burned out , it just they want to shut down a thread or ban a poster and they cannot because the ATM poster is more than their match.

So , this new rule rule of 30 days just a way of closing the ATM section without saying it.

Ah, but that's because you think ATM is there to explore new ideas.

It's not, it's to see if the new idea are able to stand up to basic scrutiny.

It's only once it has established it can survive in the glare of attention that an idea should be explored, as those that can't are better used as a premise of a science fiction story.

[GDwarf]

Originally Posted by galacsi

As of moderators burned out , it just they want to shut down a thread or ban a poster and they cannot because the ATM poster is more than their match.

If a mod really wanted to, they could just ban a person. Now, they won't without reason, but arguing that they, for some reason, can't ban people is foolish.

[hhEb09'1]

Originally Posted by 01101001

I've never seen ATM's main purpose being to debunk bad science. I've never seen it used that way. Other subforums did that, in the Bad Astronomy Forum days, and now in the BAUT Forum.

You are correct, by my experience, and nutant gene 71 is in error in suppposing otherwise.

Originally Posted by magman

Here here, I second the name change!

It would help stop "mainstreamers" getting thier knickers in a knot, by being threatened by a new theory.

I'm not sure why a name change would have such an effect

And I'm not aware of mainstreamers being "threatened" by a new theory, anyway. I love new theories, myself.

Originally Posted by galacsi

My proposition :

1. Each thread has an Owner : the guy who started it.

I'd vote twice against that one if I could. No threads have an "owner", once the OP is posted, the thread belongs to everybody. The mods have control of course.

[Kelfazin]

Originally Posted by galacsi

As it is impossible to explore a new idea in 30 days ,and I know it , because i have posted in the EU and expanding earth threads , it is clearly the end of ATM threads.

As of moderators burned out , it just they want to shut down a thread or ban a poster and they cannot because the ATM poster is more than their match.

So , this new rule rule of 30 days just a way of closing the ATM section without saying it.

On Tuesday at 3:45pm PST there were 182,690 posts in ATM with 5,726 threads. On Sunday at 10:30am PST there are 183,077 posts and 5,732 threads. So there were 387 new posts and 6 new threads. Tell us again, because I think we must have missed something, how is the forum is dead?

[Serenitude]

Originally Posted by galacsi

So , this new rule rule of 30 days just a way of closing the ATM section without saying it.

Galacsi, now that I've had a chance to poke around the tools a bit, I can tell you that closing the entire ATM section is actually physically easier than banning members or timing threads. It's the solution with the fewest button presses, and doesn't require copy'n'paste. All of these require only a few seconds to accomplish though.

But given that, and the incredible amount of rage that Fraser and Phil are already (unjustly, IMO) taking, do you not think that if shutting down ATM were the intention, they wouldn't just do it?

Why must this be some sort of Conspiracy? It's absurd.

[galacsi]

Originally Posted by Serenitude

Galacsi, now that I've had a chance to poke around the tools a bit, I can tell you that closing the entire ATM section is actually physically easier than banning members or timing threads. It's the solution with the fewest button presses, and doesn't require copy'n'paste. All of these require only a few seconds to accomplish though.

But given that, and the incredible amount of rage that Fraser and Phil are already (unjustly, IMO) taking, do you not think that if shutting down ATM were the intention, they wouldn't just do it?

Why must this be some sort of Conspiracy? It's absurd.

Hi

"Conspiracy" is a strong word , I did not use it.

Ok , the BAUT Owners don't like ATM ideas , but the fact is
BAUT has offered a space where some ideas could be discussed for as long as people wanted. It was new and exciting (And some time frustrating too). This had a great succes . (and generated a lot of traffic) . And now all ATM discussions will be truncated after just one month. Reason given ; moderators are burned out policing these threads. May be some moderators take this too much at heart !
You don't have to be surprised if some people are not happy with this new rule ! You give and then take back !

And Serenitude IMO ATM forum cannot be closed really , because it is used to coral all A T M ideas and discussions.

I am curious to see how things will evolve in the next weeks. I would not be astonished too much if some of the new ATM thread has been open by people ignoring their discussion will be shot down in one month.And could not be open again without a "Good reason".
I understand BAUT may have other reasons to "tidy" the place but from my point of view it is not a good decision.

PS : Bravo pour votre promotion !

[Bogie]

Speaking philosophically, the other shoe has not yet dropped.

No one can be happy with what has happened on the ATM forum since the 30 day rule has gone into effect.

Owners, administrators and moderators of BAUT have not yet seen the changes that they intend. Posters have not yet gotten the message that “stupid” ideas will not be tolerated much longer.

It will come to a head when the other shoe drops.

Maybe the other shoe is prior approval of ATM threads, no 30 day rule but quicker termination of fruitless threads? And a new “standard rules” forum for general discussion of ideas that don’t qualify for ATM, moderated by new volunteers who don’t have the professional credentials but who have shown themselves to be responsible in regard to understanding and following the “standard” rules of conduct.

[Fraser]

Since you don't trust me, I guess you'll just have to wait and see what I do. It's my actions, not my words that reveal my intentions. And until you do actually trust me, any stress you feel about this is entirely self-inflicted.

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by Fraser

Since you don't trust me, I guess you'll just have to wait and see what I do. It's my actions, not my words that reveal my intentions. And until you do actually trust me, any stress you feel about this is entirely self-inflicted.

It is like that with so many things in life. Take the stock market for example. It does what it does regardless of what the the "experts" say it will do, and often does the opposite of what they say it will do.

[Jim]

What it really comes down to is this... If folks posting in the ATM threads had played by the established and publicized rules, there would never have been a problem. They didn't, there was, and now the rules have been tightened.

[Roy Batty]

Exactly! and now there seems to be 14 billion threads to replace them in 'About Baut' (I know because I counted all of them).

[HenrikOlsen]

Originally Posted by Bogie

No one can be happy with what has happened on the ATM forum since the 30 day rule has gone into effect.

Speak for yourself, I'm happy.

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen

Speak for yourself, I'm happy.

I didn't know anyone was happy about it. I stand corrected.

I was basing my generalization on the fact that many of the current open threads are Q&A candidates, not ATM. Also there is still a lack of serious ATM presentations as far a I can tell. Some of the current activity is "business as usual" and that is why I was thinking that the other shoe might drop.

[Moose]

Originally Posted by Bogie

I didn't know anyone was happy about it. I stand corrected.

Further correction: The rule is about the only thing I'm happy with as far as the ATMers are concerned.

[Nereid]

We really don't need two threads on the new ATM policies.

Please continue such discussion in The Future of ATM thread.

Note that I have collected the specific, concrete, potentially implementable suggestions on the policies for BAUT's ATM section, from this and the other thread, and created a summary here.