Why do we have ATM here?

[R.A.F.]

Originally Posted by Jim

Dutch, you PMed me yesterday asking for permission to reopen your thread and post your new information. Without waiting for a response, you posted that information in an unrelated thread outside ATM.

Bad form.

I'll say...from my post to Dutch...

Originally Posted by R.A.F.

...you should PM this information to a mod. If they decide that these "new developments" are worth discussion, then they will reopen your thread.

bolding mine...

Dutch, I know you're real "anxious" to discuss your ideas, but you've had your "chance" to present your ideas, and they came up wanting. Your only option at this point is to convince a mod that your "new" ideas are different/better than your "old" ideas.

...and if you cannot do this to their satisfaction, then your days of discussing your interdimensional "stuff" on this board are over.


aside...and whoever thought up the "30 day rule" should get a pay raise.

[Gillianren]

So they should get paid, then?

[Moose]

"Ten percent of nothin'. Let me do the math: nothin' from nothin', carry the nothin'..." - Jayne Cobb

[Tobin Dax]

Originally Posted by Moose

"Ten percent of nothin'. Let me do the math: nothin' from nothin', carry the nothin'..." - Jayne Cobb

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read that last night.

[Tim Thompson]

Originally Posted by Dutch

a 30 days limit makes no sense at all, ...

Well, I think it makes sense, although I would rather that the rule were changed or modified. As we can see in this thread, there are too many disguised ATM discussions outside the ATM forum. Better to let the ATM discussions ramble more than we might like, I think, to keep them in ATM, where they belong. Maybe make the limit longer. There was an ATM thread with my name in the title, and I didn't even get a chance to see it before it got closed!

Originally Posted by Dutch

A real breakthrough in our understanding of reality won't take place here I'm affraid.

That's not too amazing. This is a casual discussion board, not a venue for cutting edge cosmic reasearch. I remember a science fiction story from my long ago youth, where all the oddball, weirdo, eccentric characters were dumped into one closed colony, to do as they wished. They were constantly wathced by teams of people with recorders who could not interfere, but reported everything that happened. They were looking for the occasional useful concept or good idea, buried in all the eccentric noise.

That's what ATM is like to me, the colony where all the eccentric, weirdo, oddball ideas get mulled over. Most of the time they are useless, ignorant, or just plain really bad ideas. Sometimes they are admittedly speculation, and can lead to an interesting discussion, although there are no "breakthroughs", except perhaps in the personal sense of improved insight. Interesting ideas are few & far between in ATM.

[antoniseb]

One thing that may not have been said about why we have the ATM section is that I, and perhaps others, have developed a deeper sense of understanding the science leading to mainstream understandings by seeing the arguments put forward by our more learned ATM members. It is one thing to accept the mainstream viewpoint, and another to understand the observations and measurements that got us to that viewpoint.

It is also useful to know which parts of the mainstream are solid, and which ones are based on measurements with wider error bars. Without the ATM section, I would know a lot less about these things.

ATM supporters, I disagree with you most the time, but thanks very much for your efforts.

[EDG_]

Heck I think 30 days is too long. The ATM thread I was on (the one Northwind started on electric universe stuff and Dione/Tethys) was started on June 14th and after only nine days it got closed. In all that time (6 pages of thread) Northwind did not produce a shred of evidence for his ideas - even when directly challenged - and just made excuses to avoid answering the questions asked of him before admitting he didn't have any answers.

If that was left for 30 days it would have just carried on with him evading the questions, making excuses, trying to distract, etc. So personally I think these threads should be closed as soon as it becomes clear that the ATMer is just making excuses and trying to avoid providing evidence or tests for his ideas. That saves everyone's time from being wasted.

[hhEb09'1]

Originally Posted by EDG_

Heck I think 30 days is too long.

I think 30 days is too short, but I deal

That saves everyone's time from being wasted.

Just remember: Beeswax

[Jim]

Originally Posted by EDG_

Heck I think 30 days is too long. The ATM thread I was on (the one Northwind started on electric universe stuff and Dione/Tethys) was started on June 14th and after only nine days it got closed. In all that time (6 pages of thread) Northwind did not produce a shred of evidence for his ideas ...

No, but you, tusenfem, and some others presented some very interesting rebuttals to his claims. This is what Antoniseb was talking about in his post, and it's why that particular thread lasted as long as it did.

Originally Posted by EDG_

If that was left for 30 days it would have just carried on with him evading the questions, making excuses, trying to distract, etc. So personally I think these threads should be closed as soon as it becomes clear that the ATMer is just making excuses and trying to avoid providing evidence or tests for his ideas. That saves everyone's time from being wasted.

Which is pretty much what happened.

[EDG_]

Originally Posted by Jim

No, but you, tusenfem, and some others presented some very interesting rebuttals to his claims. This is what Antoniseb was talking about in his post, and it's why that particular thread lasted as long as it did.

Maybe I've got the wrong impression here, but I thought you left all ATM threads for 30 days, and that the electric Dione/Tethys thread was an exception that was closed early.

If that's wrong then fair enough

Which is pretty much what happened.

Yes, but you could have left it for 30 days and we'd have got no further than we got in 9 days. Which is why I was saying that the threads should be closed when it's apparent they're going nowhere, not in 30 days regardless. But if that's what actually does happen in practice then that's fine by me .

[Michael Noonan]

Originally Posted by antoniseb

ATM supporters, I disagree with you most the time, but thanks very much for your efforts.

Yes but it is the courteous way that you word that disagreement that matters.

I thank you, and a short note here to say this ATMer probably wouldn't have branched into such diverse interests as in-determinism and positivism if it hadn't been for the interest that builds on being able to express an idea.

Sure you will attract some odd ones but with a well run ATM it means you (whispering) "know where 'they' are".

[Len Deighton]

I'd like to post an ATM theory, but I can't think of a good one. What are some good areas to explore?

[Michael Noonan]

Originally Posted by Len Deighton

I'd like to post an ATM theory, but I can't think of a good one. What are some good areas to explore?

There are 198 pages of ATM threads going back to 1969.

In the ATM section currently there are 5921 threads and one of the earliest that I couldn't bring up any info on was Sidereal variations in electronic data by upriver.

In reality you have a huge amount of ATM topics to expand on or look around and not necessarily upwards, take for instance the gentle flow of a river and the standing wave ripple the water makes as it passes around the various rocks in its flow path.

Adapt an idea to curvature of space and time if you like, so really the sky is the limit. Seriously there is a lot of good science already (although it is more to a conformist point of view), the "Electric Universe" idea is frowned upon by mainstream so pick your topic carefully because believe me if you pick that you will be challenged.

I say 'frowned on' because both camps are in very firmly entrenched positions, so be absolutely aware that you are either looking for a bun fight or an early eviction, alternatively pick an oddity much much smaller that you know a lot about or are prepared to learn a lot about very very quickly.

The best alternate if you don't have anything as a burning ambition already is to that is to read through for a while and take an active interest until something helpful pops up that you really do wish to explore and that is what astronomy is really all about, exploration. Cosmology is about theorising and ATM is more like the boxing ring. Having said that and only you can know whether you are a light medium or heavy weight, be nice be firm and enjoy.

[Gillianren]

Originally Posted by Len Deighton

I'd like to post an ATM theory, but I can't think of a good one. What are some good areas to explore?

I'd suggest that this is, perhaps, the wrong way to look at things.

What area of science interests you? Is there some aspect of it that doesn't seem quite right to you? Do you think you can figure out a better explanation? Great! You've got yourself an ATM idea. However, if you can't think of any ways the mainstream is wrong, there's no point in trying to make one up just so you can have one to declare.

I'm not saying, of course, that you should automatically assume that science is right. I'm just saying that coming up with an ATM idea for the express purpose of posting it here is not something I'd think was a good idea.

[davidlpf]

Originally Posted by Gillianren

Oh, that's not true. He never figured it out!

Well I just gave up, somedtimes I feel like writing a post to explain how images are processed to get data out of them. I don't think a lot of atmers actually know how much work is involved.

[hhEb09'1]

Originally Posted by Michael Noonan

There are 198 pages of ATM threads going back to 1969.

1969, really?

I had to go look. It looks like those 1969 threads are orphans, thread titles without posts. The BABB board should only go back to October of 2001--here's an early experiment in locking ATM threads in November of 2001

[Van Rijn]

Yes, BAUT was very different in '69. It took a large well air conditioned room to house the BAUT server, and it was accessed with teletypes. Ah, those were the days!

[davidlpf]

ToSeek was already at 1000 posts.

[EDG_]

Originally Posted by Len Deighton

I'd like to post an ATM theory, but I can't think of a good one. What are some good areas to explore?

Anything will do. Just pick any random science topic, skim over the mainstream knowledge about it (this part is optional), make up some random stuff in its stead, and then spend 10 pages of threads claiming that mainstream is wrong and parrying legitimate questions and looking stupid in the process.

[Michael Noonan]

Originally Posted by EDG_

Anything will do. Just pick any random science topic, skim over the mainstream knowledge about it (this part is optional), make up some random stuff in its stead, and then spend 10 pages of threads claiming that mainstream is wrong and parrying legitimate questions and looking stupid in the process.

Very well said, a clear understanding of good science is the preferred option especially if given the odds of 1/1,000 to 1/10,000 of a percent chance against making a new discovery.

Having said that however with odds of 100,000 to 1,000,000 to one against if you do come up with a new or better explanation you will be famous.

[Maksutov]

Originally Posted by davidlpf

ToSeek was already at 1000 posts.

I was still lurking, although in black and white.

[Maksutov]

Originally Posted by Dutch
a 30 days limit makes no sense at all, ...

Even though you're on my ignore list, other posters quote you.

I must respond to this comment.

First, given all the nonsensical baloney you've posted, it seems to me rather arrogant to complain about a time limit making "no sense at all".

Second, have you ever taught/presented a college-level class?

I would guess not.

I have.

There are many things about successfully teaching such a class. One of the keys is to convince your students that what you are presenting is legitimate and important.

This is what typically follows:

"Hello, I'm Professor Mxyztplk, and I'll be presenting the fundamentals of tribology to you in this class."

At that point the good professor will explain why tribology is important and then move on to its foundations in modern science.

All of this is typically achieved, by a good teacher, in the first five minutes or so of the first class.

That you had 30 days to do the equivalent strikes me as incredibly accommodating and lenient by the BAUT.

The fact that you've never got past the point of getting your "students" to accept that what you are presenting is legitimate, important, factual, significant, and evidence-based, indicates that either your presentation needs reworking or your core material doesn't hold up to scientific scrutiny.

For me (among others), it's the latter.

[peteshimmon]

BTW...ahem...I am always ready to hear any
support for my little ATM idea on grbs. I have
already posted that any suggestions you always
knew I had something might seem a little weak
if posted after I am proved right

[hhEb09'1]

Originally Posted by Maksutov

"Hello, I'm Professor Mxyztplk, and I'll be presenting the fundamentals of tribology to you in this class."

Wouldn't that be Professor Klptzyxm?

Originally Posted by peteshimmon

BTW...ahem...I am always ready to hear any
support for my little ATM idea on grbs.

TBPBA

I have
already posted that any suggestions you always
knew I had something might seem a little weak
if posted after I am proved right

Definitely no bandwagon on BAUT

[Maksutov]

Originally Posted by hhEb09'1

Wouldn't that be Professor Klptzyxm?

I was trying to make it easy for the poor fellow. His real-world experience seems somewhat limited.

Good thing I didn't quote the Bizarro world equivalent.

Riddle me that, Supes!



PS: It's not unusual for many professors to disappear after (or during) the first class.

[tusenfem]

I like ATM, from an "educator's" kind of viewpoint. I think it is great that there is a forum in which wannabe scientists can show their ideas. In some way I hope that I can set misinterpretations of mainstream science right and try to correct mistakes when I see them. Sometimes that helps sometimes not. And sometimes I cannot be bothered, looking at a thread (I guess Grav and Czeslaw are examples of that) when I first have to read through 6 messages by the OP. I am glad some people are more persistent than I am. But I do think it is fun to have an ATM.

[peteshimmon]

TBPBA?...so if and when I am proved right you
might go back and "amend" some posts to show
you were a supporter all along? Sounds a bit
risky if any printouts exist

[ToSeek]

Originally Posted by Len Deighton

I'd like to post an ATM theory, but I can't think of a good one. What are some good areas to explore?

You can have mine:

"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?"

[Len Deighton]

Originally Posted by EDG_

Anything will do. Just pick any random science topic, skim over the mainstream knowledge about it (this part is optional), make up some random stuff in its stead, and then spend 10 pages of threads claiming that mainstream is wrong and parrying legitimate questions and looking stupid in the process.

Thanks to you and others for all the helpful advice. I will have to think about it. It seems like difficult competition, some of the ATM theorists here are very good. They argue so vigorously I became convinced for a while that some of them weren't acting, but actually believed their theories. I don't know if I can be that convincing.

But thanks again, maybe I will give it a try anyway.

[Len Deighton]

Originally Posted by ToSeek

You can have mine:

"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?"

See, this is a very good one. I don't think I could come up with one this good by myself. Maybe I should take your advice and recycle an old one