Proposed Forum Changes

[mugaliens]

I'm fast approaching my third birthday here on BAUT. For a while now, I've had it in my head the changes I would implement if I were king for a day.

I do not say this lightly, but with more than 20 years experience in the area of electronic bulletin boarding.

The changes wouldn't be huge, and wouldn't take much time - I helped tommac build this site over just a few hours, complete with nested levels of security and associated accesibility. I incorporated much of my thought as to how BAUT might be reorganized into his forum.

Put simply, they are as follows:

1. Keep the Universe Today and Bad Astronomy sections as they are. Their organization, as they exist now, is good, serves the purpose of those who created those sections, and should remain as they are.

2. Move General's Questions and Answers to the Space and Astronomy section. The Q&A thread is for questions within the genre covered by that section. The other threads in the Space and Astronomy section are more commentary, and are fairly well targeted.

3. Create a new section called Off-Topic Babbling and move the OTB forum there. It needs it's own home, as it's the largest forum - more than twice the size of any other forum except ATM. Then, rename it General, and create a couple of co-forums like Science and Industry, Our World (environment, history, weather...), etc.

4. Like OTB, create a separate section for ATM, and give it about three forums.

5. Since storytelling is fun, it should be a co-forum to Fun-n-Games. Let's call it Yarns.

The finished result would look something like this:

General
--About BAUT
--Fun-n-Games
--Yarns
Off-Topic Babbling
--General (all the old OTB threads)
--Science and Technology
--Only Human
--Not Human (everything else)
Against the Mainstream
--Astrophysics
--Evolution
--Science and Technology
--Conspiracy Theories
Universe Today (no change)
Bad Astronomy (no change)
Space and Astronomy
--Questions and Answers
--Astrophotography
--Space Exploration
--Astronomical Observing, Equipment and Accessories
--Life in Space
--Small Media at Large
General Science (it deserves it's own section)

Very little actual change is involved, as it's mostly reorganizing the folders into which things are stuffed.. These changes in vBulletin wouldn't take but a few hours to accomplish, most of which time the database is updating itself.

Something to consider...

[mugaliens]

er, on second thought, we wouldn't need the Not Human as that's already covered in OTB/General.

And we could combine ATM's Astrophysics, Science, and Technology forums, but we should have a UFO forum, too, so:

Against the Mainstream
--Astrophysics, Science, and Technology
--Evolution
--Conspiracy Theories
--UFO-logy

[Argos]

I´d agree moving Q&A to Space and Astronomy. I´d leave the rest untouched.

[Tobin Dax]

We've had this discussion before. The board ain't broke.


I'd leave it at that, but you seem to be missing the other biology fora. I only see "Evolution" in your ATM section. [/sarcasm]

[Gillianren]

Personally, I think the fewer subfora we have, the better. We have enough problems with people posting in the wrong section of the board as it is.

[chrissy]

Well all I can say is, glad your not king for the day, this board isn't broken like Tobin said and it has been doing fine without having to move/change/add or take away anything. Well whats been added is great too.
Mugs if your not happy..........

[Moose]

Same old suggestions. Next time someone brings this up, it would be good if the suggester would actually take a moment to explain why such a change is needed. What we have works fairly well.

Oh, and Evolution is firmly mainstream science. I strenuously object to your mischaracterization of Evolution as ATM, over and above my objection to a needless reorg.

[PraedSt]

I'm new here, but I hope you guys don't mind a small input.

The only change I would recommend is Gillian's above: reducing the number of sub-forums. Otherwise, forum's great.

[toothdust]

I was just thinking today that it would be nice to have some sub-forums to discuss alternate cosmology views like plasma cosmology, quasi steady state, meta model, etc. I say this because while they may not be the dominant theories, they are still theories worth exploring. And in the name of being good scientists, I think we should have areas where people can talk freely about alternate models without having the top brass around here throw the book at some unsuspecting person demanding a full, working, proven alternative to the Big Bang (even though the BBT isn't a full, totally working, and nowhere near completely proven itself....).

[Tobin Dax]

Originally Posted by Moose

Oh, and Evolution is firmly mainstream science. I strenuously object to your mischaracterization of Evolution as ATM, over and above my objection to a needless reorg.

I don't think that was Mugalien's intention, Moose. It looks like he meant that to be an "alternatives to evolution" subforum.

I stick by my point from above that evolution does not belong on this space and astronomy forum.

[Moose]

Originally Posted by Tobin Dax

I don't think that was Mugalien's intention, Moose. It looks like he meant that to be an "alternatives to evolution" subforum.

Then mugs needs to be more careful with his terminology. The less-ethical ID proponents are known to use errors like that to either call evolution weak where it isn't, or to put their own nonsense on equal footing. We don't need to be giving them ammo.

I stick by my point from above that evolution does not belong on this space and astronomy forum.

I agree, but perhaps not for the same reason.

By creating such a subforum, no matter _what_ it's called, it implies that cdesign proponentists are somehow on the same footing as real biologists. I think it's counterproductive to grant them the legitimacy of even implying they're an "alternative" to a solid functioning theory built on the sweat of lifetimes of meticulous work.

[chrissy]

Originally Posted by mugaliens

er, on second thought, we wouldn't need the Not Human as that's already covered in OTB/General.

And we could combine ATM's Astrophysics, Science, and Technology forums, but we should have a UFO forum, too, so:

Against the Mainstream
--Astrophysics, Science, and Technology
--Evolution
--Conspiracy Theories
--UFO-logy

Nope it just looks like evolution to me !

[01101001]

Originally Posted by mugaliens

I'm fast approaching my third birthday here on BAUT. For a while now, I've had it in my head the changes I would implement if I were king for a day.

See also previous discussion that came to focus on reorganization: topic If Q&A is for space and astronomy questions...

That didn't wind up changing anything either. It takes really good reasons, clear benefits, to overcome inertia.

[Gillianren]

Originally Posted by PraedSt

The only change I would recommend is Gillian's above: reducing the number of sub-forums. Otherwise, forum's great.

That's not my suggestion; I think the number we have now is just about right. I don't go into all of them--I was delighted when Fun & Games split off from BABBling, because those threads were taking over--but I'm okay with pretty much all the others. Which ones would you delete?

[Argos]

Originally Posted by 01101001

See also previous discussion that came to focus on reorganization: topic If Q&A is for space and astronomy questions...

That didn't wind up changing anything either. It takes really good reasons, clear benefits, to overcome inertia.

I think there are good reasons for the changes you propose in that thread. Q&A should really a) be under Space and Astronomy or b) have its name changed to Space and Astronomy questions.

[PraedSt]

Originally Posted by Gillianren

That's not my suggestion; I think the number we have now is just about right. I don't go into all of them--I was delighted when Fun & Games split off from BABBling, because those threads were taking over--but I'm okay with pretty much all the others. Which ones would you delete?

Sorry Gillian, a misunderstanding I guess. What I'd like is for any change to be non-increasing in terms of sub-fora. Less if possible, no change if not.

As for deleting, I have two suggestions. The first of these will probably never happen, but the second might.

1. Collapse all the UT/BA fora into one. That frees up 4 slots.
2. Collapse Astrophotography and Astronomical OEA into one. Amateur astronomy? That will free up another slot.

So you now have 5 extra slots to play with. You could get rid of a couple and make use of the rest.

For example, you could have a forum on with FAQs, because the some questions keep getting asked over and over again (GR, black holes), and people are often too lazy to search.

Or you could have a 'Frequently Covered Topics' forum instead (or as well). Discussions on evolution and global warming come up all the time. Older members will be able to think of more I'm sure.

But forums like these will have to be maintained, so I'm not sure as to how feasible they would be.

One low maintenance suggestion, and one that could also be done right away, is a 'Latest posts' forum. Tweak the software to aggregate all the last posts and display the latest 20/30 in a sub forum of its own. My browser would be very happy.

[mugaliens]

Originally Posted by Tobin Dax

I don't think that was Mugalien's intention, Moose. It looks like he meant that to be an "alternatives to evolution" subforum.

That is correct.

I stick by my point from above that evolution does not belong on this space and astronomy forum.

Well... What then about all the OTB threads? The fun and games? While Space and Astronomy may be the anchor, it doesn't mean we can't have a little fun, intellectual, exploratory, etc., with other topics of interest.

[mugaliens]

Originally Posted by 01101001

See also previous discussion that came to focus on reorganization: topic If Q&A is for space and astronomy questions...

That didn't wind up changing anything either. It takes really good reasons, clear benefits, to overcome inertia.

You've hit the nail on the head: inertia. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

Clipper ships weren't broke - they worked rather well. Yet they were replaced.

Why?

Horses, buggies, and carriages weren't broken. They were replaced, too. Train travel, the predominant for of long-distance travel, gave way simultaneously to automobiles and airplanes.

My recommendations weren't meant to fix something that I thought was borken. I didn't for one minute think Baut was broken, and am wryly amused at the inertially-backed insinuations in that direction.

Good improvements, particularly reorganizing the grouping of the few sections which are not in their logical places, is always a good idea, provided that the reorganization doesn't materially affect the content or flow of the board. With a couple decades of admin experience under my belt (I've done this before), I took such considerations well in hand before I created this thread.

I still believe that the few proposed changes would make this a better board, and would certainly appear less disjointed to newcomers. In fact, it might very well help alleviate the posting to wrong threads issue Gillianren mentioned.

Yet I'm human - I errered with respect to the Evolution thread, as has been duly noted.

Hey - it's why I created this thread, to get your feedback.

And for that matter, the proposed changes are actually so slight (less than 10%) that it's not like going from Clipper ships to steam ships. Rather, it's more like doing some re-rigging, moving a few things around so that our Clipper BAUT is a bit more streamlined, more efficient, and more effective.

Again, BAUT's not broke. But a few things are, logically, out of place, and it's time we tidy things up a bit.

[mahesh]

Praed...when did you join, again?

[PraedSt]

Originally Posted by mahesh

Praed...when did you join, again?

Only last month my friend. I know, not long enough to go round suggesting changes.

[mugaliens]

PraedSt, you have some interesting ideas.

I doubt you'll convince many that combining UT/BA stuff is in most people's best interests, and certainly not Phil's or Fraser's, as they exist to meet separate, and important requirements.

As for the number of "slots," these can be added/merged at will via the control panel (we prawns don't get to see that). Thus, there's really no limit, except for practical reasons to ensure the board doesn't become prolific with a separate section for each and ever thing.

I like the idea of putting oft-repeated topics in a FAQ or Frequently Covered Topics forum, but I was considering just that when I made my recommendations, so as to provide some separation for the sorts of topics which currently reappear on Q&A and OTB all the time.

"Tweaking the software to agregate all the last posts" is a bit beyond what vBulletin is designed to do. One thing it does very well, however, is display the threads in either forward or reverse chronological order, something you can set in your options.

Thank you, all, for your opinions and comments. I hope I've addressed some of the concerns you've raised.

[mahesh]

like last month...when?

[mahesh]

just on september 24 2008, there have been changes to BAUT...for the better...
looks like some people are not satisfied or don't know or don't realise...

aaahh....i should go make another cup of tea!

[PraedSt]

Originally Posted by mugaliens

I doubt you'll convince many that combining UT/BA stuff is in most people's best interests, and certainly not Phil's or Fraser's, as they exist to meet separate, and important requirements.

Yes, I thought that wouldn't fly. I was looking at it in terms of volumes, because 'number viewing' on these fora sometimes never get to double digits. Which is low for something that is not a meta-forum like 'About Baut' for example. Hmmm...maybe Phil and Fraser could be convinced using the ad revenue angle...

Originally Posted by mahesh

like last month...when?

You mean the exact date Mahesh? I don't remember that!

EDIT:

Originally Posted by mahesh

just on september 24 2008, there have been changes to BAUT...for the better...
looks like some people are not satisfied or don't know or don't realise...

Oh no, I'm happy with BAUT. But you know how it is, no one (incl me) can resist tinkering...

[Tobin Dax]

Originally Posted by mugaliens

Well... What then about all the OTB threads? The fun and games? While Space and Astronomy may be the anchor, it doesn't mean we can't have a little fun, intellectual, exploratory, etc., with other topics of interest.

It means exactly that when it comes to ATM posts. The ATM forum description reads: "Post here if you want to discuss a theory that goes against the astronomical mainstream." So, two points:

1) Over all, this board has a space and astronomy theme. There are a few diversions, but most of us are here for discussion of space and astronomy.
2) ATM is bad enough as it is. Opening it up to a biology topic that most of us here are not fit to defend is a bad idea. Additionally, the evolution forum would further perpetuate the way-too-common misconception that evolution and cosmology are linked (if not the same thing).

To me, your comment sounds like a straw man. After three years and more than 7,000 posts, you should be aware of most of the times that members (including moderators) have pointed out that this is a space and astronomy forum, and that your proposed evolution forum is all kinds of wrong.

Edit: This post was made without reading post mugs' quoted post.
A quick additional point: changing around subfora locations has been proposed before and nothing came of it. (This was noted above.) You're wasting your breath, mugs.

[Neverfly]

Originally Posted by Tobin Dax

2) ATM is bad enough as it is. Opening it up to a biology topic that most of us here are not fit to defend is a bad idea. Additionally, the evolution forum would further perpetuate the way-too-common misconception that evolution and cosmology are linked (if not the same thing).

To me, your comment sounds like a straw man. After three years and more than 7,000 posts, you should be aware of most of the times that members (including moderators) have pointed out that this is a space and astronomy forum, and that your proposed evolution forum is all kinds of wrong.

I disagree on this take.

There is cosmological Evolution. It's just as mainstream as biological evolution is and it has just as many misconceptions about it.

[Tobin Dax]

Originally Posted by Neverfly

I disagree on this take.

There is cosmological Evolution. It's just as mainstream as biological evolution is and it has just as many misconceptions about it.

There's also stellar evolution, planetary evolution, and galactic evolution. How do these not fit under the following proposed subforum? Or why should be they be put in a different subforum?

Against the Mainstream
--Astrophysics, Science, and Technology

[Neverfly]

Originally Posted by Tobin Dax

There's also stellar evolution, planetary evolution, and galactic evolution. How do these not fit under the following proposed subforum? Or why should be they be put in a different subforum?

Don't ask me. I was just commenting on the evolution bit. I didn't say anything about where to stick it.


I might if pushed though...

[Salty]

Originally Posted by mugaliens

That is correct.



Well... What then about all the OTB threads? The fun and games? While Space and Astronomy may be the anchor, it doesn't mean we can't have a little fun, intellectual, exploratory, etc., with other topics of interest.

OK, ya'll should know by now, that I don't go along with ID, I do go along with Creation and evolution a part of that. ie, evolution exists as secondary to creation, and is not a primary function. However, my go alongs are not scientific.

My question is, what scientific alternative to evolution as a description of how biology works, is there?

[Salty]

I haven't been around BAUT that long. But, experience tells me, from other fields, that when there's lots of people, changes should come slowly. And, as another mentioned, there's been recent changes.

Let recent changes serve progress, for a few years, if not a year.

I think BAUT works fine, as is.