Should we re-organize the BAUT forum?

[Abaddon]

I voted "its no big deal"

The only change I would suggest is chuck the Q&A into the Astronomy section.

Having it in the General section makes it open to questions about anything at all, a mistake I made myself.

If it is to be restricted to astronomy questions only then it should go in that section, possibly being replaced in the general section by a new general questions forum open to any question.

Just my 2c.

ETA: Also the mods will spend time moving inappropriate questions to other areas. eg If I posted a question on chemistry, where should that be moved?
General science perhaps? Sure, but how does a new member know this? It is unclear that a Q&A section in the "General" area is restricted to astronomy to a newcomer.

[chrissy]

I think there should be two sections for Q&A one for science related and another for astronomy related, just a thought.

[Abaddon]

Originally Posted by chrissy

I think there should be two sections for Q&A one for science related and another for astronomy related, just a thought.

Thats exactly what I was getting at, and they should be named so as there is no confusion as to what they are about.

[chrissy]

It would help a lot for those seeking answers to particular questions on topics relating to science or astronomy, as many people don't go to Q&As in general to supply answers.

[TheHalcyonYear]

Originally Posted by Tobin Dax

Maybe our favorite Vulcan board member has been a founder infiltrator all along.

I smell a Vulcan coup!!

[Ara Pacis]

Originally Posted by Abaddon

ETA: Also the mods will spend time moving inappropriate questions to other areas. eg If I posted a question on chemistry, where should that be moved?
General science perhaps? Sure, but how does a new member know this? It is unclear that a Q&A section in the "General" area is restricted to astronomy to a newcomer.

It could be written into the little text blurb below the forum title.

[Tucson_Tim]

So far, if you throw away the middle category ("It's no big deal either way"), it looks like a standoff: 20 for, 19 against.

Now, is 60 total votes a small or large percentage of the active membership?

[Moose]

Short answer: You couldn't hang your hat on the results.

Long answer: ... But not because of the sample size, which is smaller than ideal but adequate.

The reason, first and foremost, is that the sample is self-selecting. People vote if they feel like voting and don't if they don't. That means the sample is necessarily non-representative of BAUT's population (even the subset of active members.)

Just as bad from a study standpoint, the survey is not blinded (neither single or double). This thread itself means that the participants and the people conducting the survey are aware of the results as they are tallied, and often before a vote is cast.

And beyond the lack of basic scientific controls, there are signs of other confounding factors at play (such as the folks voting to the bell curve because it's funny.)

That said, this result will still be useful for the admin, as it's a pretty clear indication that BAUTers as a whole don't feel strongly about the matter, either way. (Self-selecting surveys tend to bias towards the extremes. The more polarizing a question, the greater the effect. For the same reason, the center positions can actually be significantly under-reported compared to the actual population.)

It means the admin are more or less free to act to their preferences without an expectation of major repercussions. (No riots, no bits of ticker tape to vacuum out of the corners. Etc.)

[NEOWatcher]

Originally Posted by Moose

Short answer: You couldn't hang your hat on the results.

Some good points there...

In the end though; I think the previous discussion has given a better feel for the solutions.

There's been a lot of good discussions about a "total" solution and many things in-between which I think this kind of poll doesn't fully address.

I also think that the opinions and reasons given on that thread should have a bigger bearing on the decision. I'm not sure an un-weighted opinion can have as much impact as a weighted one. I also wouldn't know how you could logically weight it anyway since there are many choices and some not able to be determined. (post count, longevity, skill set, and many more)

I'll leave my trust to the mods and admins. I abstain.

[tdvance]

Originally Posted by Moose

Short answer: You couldn't hang your hat on the results.

Long answer: ... But not because of the sample size, which is smaller than ideal but adequate.

I used to work for the State of WV, and we took a survey of the Eastern Panhandle senior citizens to find out what they considered their biggest needs (of the kind providable by senior centers, etc.). Of course, I complained about our survey method--the surveyor picks houses at random they think a senior citizen might live. To quote a psychologist on the team, "we discriminate against owners of vicious rottweilers."

[Moose]

Originally Posted by tdvance

Of course, I complained about our survey method--the surveyor picks houses at random they think a senior citizen might live.

It would be interesting to see a plot of the locations. I'd put a few bucks on "houses at random" being semi-random clusters within easy walking distance of where they could find a parking spot. [Edit: Never mind, just saw the WV. Parking wouldn't likely be much of a problem.]

To quote a psychologist on the team, "we discriminate against owners of vicious rottweilers."

Heh.

[tdvance]

nope, no problem parking in Eastern Panhandle--biggest city is 10,000 people (Martinsburg).

Of course, back woods houses, and there are still plenty (I recall in HS dad taking me to see a guy, half-hour drive on bad roads from the nearest grocery store--oh I'd hate that! But he doesn't get door-to-door salesmen), will be missed altogether.

[mahesh]

Originally Posted by tdvance

....To quote a psychologist on the team, "we discriminate against owners of vicious rottweilers."

my bolds...

hunh? where? how? why?

Hasn't met my Lullie (Tallulah)!

She could teach a thing or two, about gentleness and love, I tell you, Todd

[tdvance]

you mean, you've never heard of a vicious rottweiler? Kid in Charlottesville was killed by one that escaped his owner's yard when I was in grad school there.

[Ara Pacis]

Originally Posted by Moose

Short answer: You couldn't hang your hat on the results.

You'd think that being a science board we might have a scientific poll...

[HenrikOlsen]

Unfortunately, to do so would require the poll's result to be hidden until it stopped running, which is not how it was set up.

As it is, amongst those who could be bothered to vote which supposedly are the ones who care the most, we have a clear 87% majority for "I may have an opinion but I'm not really incensed about it."

[Hornblower]

Perhaps the layout of the main page is optimized about as well as reasonably can be expected, but I think we should tweak the choices of words in some places.

Case in point: There is a new thread in Questions and Answers with a biology question that has nothing to do with astronomy or space science. Perhaps the poster saw Questions and Answers in a group boldly labeled General, and did not notice the fine print indicating that it was intended for space/astronomy questions. I would suggest boldly entitling it Space/Astronomy Questions and Answers. In addition, my inclination would be to move General Science into this group.

[mugaliens]

Originally Posted by Moose

Short answer: You couldn't hang your hat on the results.

Long answer: ... But not because of the sample size, which is smaller than ideal but adequate.

The reason, first and foremost, is that the sample is self-selecting. People vote if they feel like voting and don't if they don't. That means the sample is necessarily non-representative of BAUT's population (even the subset of active members.)

And in so doing, their non-vote is essentiall a vote for the middle ground, not as the question is worded, by in that catch-all category, "don't care." They may very well have chosen a pro or con stance, had they voted. Since they chose not to, their choice has become, by default, "don't care."

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." - Rush

Thus, for the poll's intended purpose, it's certainly enough to "hang your hat on."

[quote]Just as bad from a study standpoint, the survey is not blinded...[quote]

On vBulletin? I think you're asking too much, here... Given the constraints, it's one of the best and most accurate polls on this forum.

That said, this result will still be useful for the admin, as it's a pretty clear indication that BAUTers as a whole don't feel strongly about the matter, either way.

Agreed.

...and...

It means the admin are more or less free to act to their preferences without an expectation of major repercussions. (No riots, no bits of ticker tape to vacuum out of the corners. Etc.)

Also agreed.

[cosmocrazy]

I think chrissy has mentioned the idea of having 2 Q&A sections. Thinking about it more i think this is a great idea. Why not have a Q&A put in Space astronomy and Science. This being topic related Q&A only. Then make Q&A in the general section exactly that general Q&A. I realise we have OTB but that is just babbling most of the time. In General Q&A people could seek advise on any topic. You may say that one could google or ask.com and such but i think it would be nice to be able to ask a reasonable question and have the opportunity for it to be answered on a more personal note. We have a vast extremely versatile list of members from all walks of life. I bet i could seek some advise and someone on BAUT could give me some advise based on personal experience or better knowledge of the topic. I certainly would rather ask one of you guys for some help rather than go googling, receiving most times just a text book answer.

[mugaliens]

Edit: Something really messed up the format with this post. It was fine a while ago...

Oh, well - I couldn't re-create it. Two last points made by Moose were good, though, and I agreed with them both. It appears fine, above. <shrug>Not sure what happened.</shrug>

[Moose]

Originally Posted by mugaliens

On vBulletin? I think you're asking too much, here... Given the constraints, it's one of the best and most accurate polls on this forum.

Not asking anything at all from this. Just explaining that there's not much point in worrying about the sample size or how representative it is, as this is not something that could be considered even slightly statistically rigorous. One must be cautious about putting weight on the results of a straw poll.

As a (very) blunt instrument, though, the straw poll does have some value in guestimating the general strength of opinion at the extremities, which is all that's really needed in this exercise.

[Ara Pacis]

But it's still limited by location and knowledge of the issue. I rarely come to About BAUT and wouldn't have seen the poll if I hadn't stumbled across it. If it were publicized by a directed announcement or mass mailing, then the results of a larger poll might be more representative.

[mugaliens]

Originally Posted by Ara Pacis

But it's still limited by location and knowledge of the issue. I rarely come to About BAUT and wouldn't have seen the poll if I hadn't stumbled across it. If it were publicized by a directed announcement or mass mailing, then the results of a larger poll might be more representative.

Good point - it's easy enough for an admin to create a forum-wide announcement with a link to this thread and its poll.

[ToSeek]

Originally Posted by mugaliens

Good point - it's easy enough for an admin to create a forum-wide announcement with a link to this thread and its poll.

Happy now?

[Pippin]

Yes! I have maintained the beautiful status quo with my vote. 4-18-27-18-4 and without peeking first. Disorganized or reorganized is fine by me, the lads(and lasses) will be thrashing my pseudoscience in either format, so I'm not picky.

[mike alexander]

The poll seems to be proving the central limit theorem.

Don't change. I'm old and if someone changes anything I get lost and can't find my way around. Then I call 911, forget why, and end up reporting a cat in a tree just to cover my shame. Actually, last time I reported Fazor in a tree.

[mahesh]

Originally Posted by ToSeek

Happy now?

Thanks ToSeek for your kind BAUT-wide message...why do we keep making work for you?! guys?

just confirming, i already voted at # 54 thus:

Originally Posted by mahesh

oops...asymmetrified! at 3-14-..

does the current prompt imply that i can revise my opinion?

[Tog_]

Unlikely. Once you vote, the poll will show you the current results rather than present you with the option of voting again. I don't know if it would be possible for a moderator or admin to remove a vote so that it could be recast. I would actually hope that that would not be possible.

[Salty]

We just had this discussion last month. This is what I mean by Moderators and Administrators give leeway. I think it's very gracious to bring it up, again.

But, I also think that it's unnecessary. I remain against changing the forums, so soon after the other change. Give it to the end of this year.

So, I voted "I'd rather not..." change it.

[Sticks]

I disagree about moving the Q&A thread to limit questions about space and astronomy

Suppose someone wants to ask a question about particle physics and quantum theory?

Technically they are not astronomy or space, but particle physics matches up with Cosmology quite well, hence Phil's interest in the LHC.

I am not sure that the case for changing anything has been made, unless I have missed something.