Principal offenders

[Hlafordlaes]

Originally Posted by Gillianren

I mean, I understand that creative criticism is a helpful thing. But when your criticism isn't taken on board and isn't going to be, there comes a time where you either have to live with things or walk away. Personally, I love it here; it's almost the only place on the entire internet I post. I can imagine, however, a time when I couldn't stand to be here and had to leave, and I like to think I'd know when that time had come. There would, for starters, be a lot less of a feedback process than there is now.

I come here not only to post but to learn. This is the finest forum I have ever come across, bar none. My only complaint is my own lack of knowledge; I feel the need to contribute in more substantial ways than jokes in the General Interest section. I am attempting to self-educate as much as possible to do that; nowhere else have I found such brilliant people willing to share their insights so freely.

Unabashed BAUT fanboy!

[mugaliens]

Originally Posted by grant hutchison

I assumed there was necessarily some repetition involved.

Grant Hutchison

As I clearly mentioned, it's ok to continue to try to get through when it's a first response to someone's legitimate question.

All to frequently on this board, however, some people's posts are nothing more than school-yard jabs with no other purpose than to incite a response, preferrably an irked one, while not getting caught. They do this by skirting the rules while either being intentionally obtuse or mercilessly abusing the rules.

Some rules here need changing so as to prevent that.

[mugaliens]

Originally Posted by Gillianren

...when your criticism isn't taken on board and isn't going to be, there comes a time where you either have to live with things or walk away.

"If your enemy defends a bridge heavily, it's worth destroying."

"If you enemy rebuilds a bridge after you've blown it up, it's worth destroying again."

No one here is "the enemy." That title encompasses misunderstanding, ignorance, and lack of experience. Some (many?) stand firm behind bad decisions, thinking they're good simply because they're better than what they've known.

When I make recommendations, it isn't because I think the board staff or users are stupid. Quite the contrary - you're among the brightest online people I know. It's because I witness some serious issues, I've experienced what happens when things were done differently, and know the issues would not exist if things were done in the alternate matter that I've experienced.

It's worth raising those points. Again. And again. And again.

Surely you're not the sort of person who would allow a bus driver to plow headlong into a wall while thinking, "well, he's the bus driver, and no one else is raising the alarm, so I'll just sit here quietly..."

Not in my nature, Gillianren. Nor is it in my nature to "sit here quietly" content with mediocrity when excellence is a ten-minute board change away, regardless of whether others see it or not.

[grant hutchison]

Originally Posted by mugaliens

All to frequently on this board, however, some people's posts are nothing more than school-yard jabs with no other purpose than to incite a response, preferrably an irked one, while not getting caught.

Yep, they're the people to ignore. After a short funless interval, they go away.

Grant Hutchison

[SolusLupus]

Originally Posted by mugaliens

Not in my nature, Gillianren. Nor is it in my nature to "sit here quietly" content with mediocrity when excellence is a ten-minute board change away, regardless of whether others see it or not.

So you want to stage a revolution then.

[R.A.F.]

Originally Posted by mugaliens

It's because I witness some serious issues, I've experienced what happens when things were done differently, and know the issues would not exist if things were done in the alternate matter that I've experienced.

So if only things were done "your way", right??

I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

[mugaliens]

Originally Posted by grant hutchison

Yep, they're the people to ignore. After a short funless interval, they go away.

Grant Hutchison

Perhaps I should have done more ignoring!

[mugaliens]

Originally Posted by R.A.F.

So if only things were done "your way", right?

That's a very incorrect way of putting it, R.A.F.

Originally Posted by SolusLupus

So you want to stage a revolution then.

Same goes for you.

But no. Instead, I work within the system to make the requsite changes.

[R.A.F.]

Originally Posted by mugaliens

That's a very incorrect way of putting it, R.A.F.

If you say so...I of course disagree...

...I work within the system to make the requsite changes.

...and even when you realize (as you should by now) that the changes you demand will not be made, you continue to complain, complain, complain.

Good strategy...

[SolusLupus]

Originally Posted by mugaliens

Same goes for you.

Explain this claim.

[Neverfly]

Mugaliens can be emphatic.

But if he is simply offering up suggestions and explaining them, I do not understand why that attracts animosity.

[Robinson]

Originally Posted by mugaliens

Surely you're not the sort of person who would allow a bus driver to plow headlong into a wall while thinking, "well, he's the bus driver, and no one else is raising the alarm, so I'll just sit here quietly..."

If you don't like the way a bus is being driven, then get off the bus.

But that is crazy talk!

No, complaining about the bus driver is crazy!

No, if you think a driver is not doing his job you should complain!

No, the bus ride is free so the bus driver can do anything he wants, and if you don't like it, get off the bus.

So you are saying if it is free it doesn't matter how the bus ride is?

Why are you still here? All you do is complain about our wonderful free bus. And our perfect drivers.

[SolusLupus]

Except the "bus" is private property. And yes, indeed, if you disagree with me as host in my own home, you're welcome to up and leave.

[Robinson]

You see? Not only is the bus free, it is private property. So when you get on the bus, you have no right to complain about anything the bus driver does.

That is how things work. If you accept something that is free, you give up all rights. Especially the right to complain or point out anything you don't like.

The only right you have is to leave. Quietly. And don't say anything bad. On your way out.

[Robinson]

I'm avoiding the whole "my home" analogy, because even I will not stoop to some depths of the ridiculous.

[SolusLupus]

Originally Posted by Robinson

That is how things work. If you accept something that is free, you give up all rights. Especially the right to complain or point out anything you don't like.

You have a "right" to post on an internet forum? Where's this "right" stated, exactly?

[SolusLupus]

Originally Posted by Robinson

I'm avoiding the whole "my home" analogy, because even I will not stoop to some depths of the ridiculous.

So if I set up a forum, I'm being held to certain standards that I must follow? Who enforces this?

[Robinson]

Now back on topic. Who do you think are the principle offenders?

Except you can't mention anyone by name. This may seem like it would cast a pall on the whole "who is" part of the question, but hey, if you don't like the bus, the next stop is right up ahead.

[SolusLupus]

Originally Posted by Robinson

Now back on topic.

No, you're not getting off that easy.

Where is this "right" you're on about stated, specifically?

[SolusLupus]

I'd also like to add the irony in claiming that I'm ridiculous for making a house analogy, while pursuing a bus analogy (public transportation) and pursuing it to the fullest. You're not on a bus. You're posting to an internet forum, and you have no "right" to do so. It's a privilege, and it's owned by a certain person, that has his own rights in how to run it. It supersedes your alleged "right" to demand that they run it in the way you prefer.

[Robinson]

One of the beautiful things about bautforum, and I agree with it 100%, is stated right up front.

I love that it is Rule 0 as well

0. The Spirit of the Law.

The purpose of all of these rules is to ensure that this forum remains a law-abiding, civil, and congenial place to engage in discussion. That a post complies with that spirit is a greater consideration than whether it can be defended as being within the rules.

I imagine what the creator, and the people charged with running things want, is a nice place to read and learn stuff. A forum that is free of the bickering and fighting that always turns up online.

A place that isn't bogged down in the Meta mess, the talking about the place.

[SolusLupus]

You still haven't explained exactly where your "rights" lay. It doesn't matter what you, or anyone else wants; the Bad Astronomer has even referred to himself as a "benevolent dictator".

You claimed, and I quote:

Originally Posted by Robinson

That is how things work. If you accept something that is free, you give up all rights. Especially the right to complain or point out anything you don't like.

I want you to support your claim. You are claiming that you have a right to "give up", and that you are having to "give up" this right, according to us. I think that it's perfectly fair to ask you to demonstrate that you even had this "right" to begin with.

I'd also add that the ability to complain has not been taken away. But Mugaliens is demanding that the owners of this board follow his way, even though they have declined. There is no "right" to force others to operate as you wish.

[Gillianren]

Originally Posted by Robinson

If you don't like the way a bus is being driven, then get off the bus.

But that is crazy talk!

No, complaining about the bus driver is crazy!

No, if you think a driver is not doing his job you should complain!

No, the bus ride is free so the bus driver can do anything he wants, and if you don't like it, get off the bus.

So you are saying if it is free it doesn't matter how the bus ride is?

Why are you still here? All you do is complain about our wonderful free bus. And our perfect drivers.

And to whom do you complain? And, once it's established that the bus is going the way the transit authority wants it to (for example, our only free bus here in town is just going to go from the Farmers' Market to the State Employee Parking, no matter where you think it should go), what are you going to do, drive the bus yourself? Only you'd have to push the driver off, and you'd have to deal with the transit authority sooner or later. The drivers aren't perfect, and I promise you that there are one or two I wouldn't have chosen, but the rules are what they are, and all your complaining to the drivers doesn't influence the transit authority, and if they aren't convinced--they manifestly aren't--you're just making things tedious for all the other passengers.

[Robinson]

Getting into an argument about the bus, while on the bus, with other members riding the bus, just annoys everybody on the bus.

[kleindoofy]

Originally Posted by mugaliens

... It's worth raising those points. Again. And again. And again. ...

No.

Decorum in any adult decision making body requires that once a suggestion has been made, considered and rejected, the decision against that suggestion is to be accepted and the matter laid to rest, at least until some new parameter enters the system, creating the need for a re-evaluation.

That's how it works *within* a system, and that's where you say you want to help out.

I'll lay down money that once a decision is made in the mod forum, that the mods who didn't "win" don't keep bringing the subject back up, again and again and again.

Harping on an issue is the job of protesters. Outside the system. I.e. Speakers' Corner in Hyde Park, not the House of Commons.

Originally Posted by mugaliens

... Surely you're not the sort of person who would allow a bus driver to plow headlong into a wall while thinking, "well, he's the bus driver, and no one else is raising the alarm, so I'll just sit here quietly..."

A bus plow headlong into a wall is a life threatening situation for the passengers.

No matter how many posts one has made or not, participation on an internet forum which has rules which one personally thinks are deficient is not a life threatening situation.

If one feels that his or her well being is being jepordized by the mores on an internet forum, then the problem is to be found offline.

[SolusLupus]

Originally Posted by Robinson

Getting into an argument about the bus, while on the bus, with other members riding the bus, just annoys everybody on the bus.

So you're complaining about being censored, by telling everyone else to shut up?

Or do you mean something else? It's hard to tell, what with you being so vague.

[mugaliens]

Originally Posted by R.A.F.

If you say so...I of course disagree...

It's entirely within your right to do so.

..and even when you realize (as you should by now) that the changes you demand will not be made, you continue to complain, complain, complain.

It's not within your right to falsely/wrongly impune either motives or actions to me which do not exist, R.A.F.

I've never "demanded" anything be changed on this board, and once a consensus has been reached, I do not "complain, complain, complain."

[Robinson]

I find people who claim other people said something, that the person never said, I find that to be a major offense.

Even worse, people who claim "so and so is ... " and then proceed to tell everybody what somebody said, thought, did, or wanted to do.

While not in the rules, such behavior is offensive in the extreme.

[mugaliens]

Originally Posted by kleindoofy

No.

You, R.A.F., Solis Lupis, and Robinson appear to be operating from a serious misunderstanding.

Hopefully, I made my position and actions clear in the immediately preceeding post. If not, oh well, and I'm sure you'll all continue your off-base Mug-bashing party while I explore the forum.

[Robinson]

People who spell my name as "Robison". That really hurts man.