Please do not try this on your computer



HAL: Ka8, b7,Rf5

Terry: Kb3,Rh3,b2,c2,d2,e2,f2,g3,b6,c7

HAL: Rf3+

Infinite possibilities!

Terry: ...........check mate, every time.

Not even HAL cannot compute or escape from it!

And neither can your computer.

Kind Regards

Terry Giblin

skype terry giblin jarrow or we could discuss it over lunch, we all have to eat

I see that with that move, Black can force a stalemate, and thus grab a draw out of "the jaws of defeat." Not too obvious, but I suspect that some Chess programs could detect it.

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Later . . .

Dear Don,

HAL (Black) would love a stalemate, but I am not mad, I play to win, checkmate, everytime.

There is nothing HAL can do.

Can you work out how?

Do not try it on your computer.

Kind Regards

Terry Giblin

You say that White can win this after that given Black move? I didn't work it out with a chess set, but . . .

Black's Pawn is frozen, and his (or her or HAL's) King has no legal moves. So, as soon as White captures the Black Rook, Black stands stalemated and White, though however-many Pawns ahead in material, gets only a draw.

Therefore, the Black Rook threatens to plunder White's Pawns and Rook with impunity, and if allowed to do so will eventually move back and resolve the logjam at his end of the board, and ultimately win with his lone Pawn.

Therefore-therefore, White will have to eventually take the Black Rook while he (or she or it) can, to avoid losing. Looks like a draw, and a clever swindle by Black.

The position indicates a rather odd game -- White hasn't yet moved a center Pawn, and White's Queen Bishop must have been captured on its home square. [Edit: Also, White's King Rook Pawn has made an extraordinary -- unless engineered by Black -- number of captures to end up on the Queen Bishop file!] White's 7th-rank Pawn has some kind of green marking on it: was this a hasty repair, or a "marked Pawn" (i.e., did White, as an extreme handicap, contract to checkmate with this Pawn? (If so, it's a failure: that Pawn can never again give check. Well, maybe a discovered check, but that would be tricky . . . .

I hope that this isn't some kind of trick problem wherein the board is reversed and White is moving "South." (Or maybe the board is rotated 90 degrees.) If that were the case, the move wouldn't really be Rf3 then (I'm supposing that the labels in the margins have no official standing in a game.) [Edit: Even if the board is upside-down, after that Rook check, the King retreats to the second rank. Black can move the Rook or promote his Pawn, but should still lose . . . but not for quite a few moves.]

The set certainly looks old and weathered. The boxes are labeled in French. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but i'll quit after 250 or so. I must be missing something!

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Later . . .

Yes, do let us see it from the opening moves---if they exist.

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*

I am absolutely horrible at chess, but that arrangement looked highly
peculiar even to me. But I don't understand the point. So White can
(maybe) win. So? Why is that of any significance? The fact that
Black can force a stalemate seems mildly significant, but apparently
that isn't your point at all. I suspect that you just forgot what the
surprise was: Not that White wins, but that Black doesn't lose.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

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http://www.FreeMars.org/jeff/

"I find astronomy very interesting, but I wouldn't if I thought we
were just going to sit here and look." -- "Van Rijn"

"The other planets? Well, they just happen to be there, but the
point of rockets is to explore them!" -- Kai Yeves

I'm no good at competitive chess. You need patience to study the openings and to evaluate positions. But I enjoy offbeat problems.

I see that White is threatening to win by queening the pawn or sliding the Rook to the back rank, but Black has that drawing resource. The Black Rook (which acnnot be taken until White leaves Black with another move) can eat up the White forces, and when they're gone, can check the White King perpetually.

I can't see a win for White, unless there's a "catch."

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Later . . .

Dear Don,

Everything you said is correct, but there is no catch, White wins, everytime.

Keep looking.

Kind Regards

Terry Giblin

Mr. T doesn't answer questions; he only asks them.

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*

Well, if we got to play out that game, I'd definitely, er, choose the Dark side. If he can find a win for White, I'll be impressed.

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Later . . .

Dear Sarongsong,

That's what I get paid to do.

I take it you haven't solved it yet?

Action speaks louder than words.

Instead of attacking me, why don't you show everyone how good you are at chess and send me the answer.

A word of advice.

A chess grandmaster will take up to 45 mins to solve this problem.

To the average chess player will probably never solve it.

If you try to cheat and get your computer chess program to try and solve it, good luck, but you have been warned.

Kind Regards

Terry Giblin

Okay. I repeat that I am absolutely abysmal at this game. I have to look
up how en passant works, not to mention castling. Really. So I don't
think anything I say can be right... but...

White King to a2 to get out of check;
Black Rook to f8 to prevent both the White Rook from going to h8 and the
marked (green) pawn from going to c8 and getting queened, either of which
would immediately put the King in check and, I presume, mate;
White Rook to h4 or h5;
Black Rook to c8;
White Rook to a4 or a5, putting Black in check and mate.

I'm sure it wouldn't take a grandmaster 4.5 seconds to see that, so it
can't be what you had in mind.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

__________________
http://www.FreeMars.org/jeff/

"I find astronomy very interesting, but I wouldn't if I thought we
were just going to sit here and look." -- "Van Rijn"

"The other planets? Well, they just happen to be there, but the
point of rockets is to explore them!" -- Kai Yeves

I see:

VARIATION 1

White: King to a2 (to escape the check).

Black: . . . Rook to a3, check.

White: King to b1 (if he captures the Rook, it's stalemate, and White only draws despite being 7 Pawns ahead, which is disgraceful.)

Black: . . . Rook to A1, check.

White is forced to take the Rook. Stalemate. Black has engineered a draw despite his material disadvantage.

VARIATION 2

The only alternative to Ka2 is e3 (push the King's Pawn up one square) to intercept the Rook check. Then, Black Rook takes White Pawn.

White pushes the d-Pawn. Black Rook takes it.

White pushes the c-Pawn. Black Rook takes it. Check.

White King retreats to a2, Black captures the b-Pawn. Check.

The White King can glide up and down the a-file, but the Black Rook can check him on the corresponding rank of the b-file. The White King can't go to a6 because of the Black Pawn, and so would have to move down the board at that point, then up again.

This is known as "perpetual check." Black has no interest in stopping the checking sequence. White cannot take the rook without causing stalemate. The rules say that: after 50 moves with no captures and no Pawn moves, or if the position should repeat itself a third time, either player can claim a draw, which Black will do.


CONCLUSION

White cannot force a win.

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Later . . .

Dear Don,

If white cannot win from this position, he should not be playing chess....

Dear Jeff,

All black can possibly hope for, is a stalemate, assuming white makes a stupid mistake (which is not allowed).

In this particular position, as they say, "the best form of defense, is attack."

The only way black can prevent white from winning, is to keep the white king in check, at all times.

The second white is not in check he will start moving his pawns or rook forward to get check mate, black must keep white in check at all times.

white knows this and is constantly in check, but can still play in such away, to guarantee that white wins.

white needs black to do as white dictates to win.......

The question is how?

where ever the white king moves, black has to move his rook to keep the white king in check, therefore there is an infinite number of possibilities.

But there is one very simple solution, for white to guarantee that he wins, every time.

If anyone does solve this problem please email the answer, please do not post the answer on this thread, so not to spoil it for the rest of the people trying to solve this problem.

Kind Regards

Terry Giblin

Try WK to c4.

ETA. So the sequence would go like this.

Then WK to c4.

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I don't ask stupid questions. I just make stupid statements!!!
DETAILS: Where the Devil waits to ensnare the unprepared!
Remember. Just because I'm sure doesn't mean I'm right.
Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognise a mistake when you make it again.

HAL's warning me huh? Well I'm warning "him": Back off or I'll gunk up your electronic wiring with peanut butter.

Go ahead, HAL, and see if I'm bluffing.

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There in the valley of Scorpio, beneath the Cross of jade
Smoking on the seashell pipe the gypsies had made
We sat and we dreamed a while...in that crystal thought time in Mexico. ~Donovan

Okay, White King to c4. The Black Rook then can check at f4. If the K moves, Black can still check him. If White interposes the d-Pawn or the e-Pawn, Black takes it with renewed check.

I can't see the White K having anywhere to hide in his own end. He can't reach b2 unless the Rook lets him.

The K can move across the board, via c4, d3, and e4 (responding to a Rook check each time) , but I can't see him getting to f3 (and via there to g2) , not if the Rook stays on the f-file. And how is White going to force the rook off the file? By threatening the suicidal piece with capture?

The K can move on "up" the board (i.e., toward the eighth rank), but the Rook should be able to check him on any move. If he drives the King in front of his own Pawn, he can checkmate him.

Remember, the Black Rook has no restrictions as to where he can go. Any time that White captures him, the goal is accomplished via the stalemate that results.

I agree that White can win as soon as Black lets up the pressure, but the latter doesn't have to do so.

Unless I'm overlooking some trick to find (or to create and exploit) a safe haven and a checkless turn . . .

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Later . . .

No need for such elaborate machinations. HAL just shuts down the life support, the poor player "times out" due to lack of oxygen. HAL wins every time.


Adapted from "The 'Smith & Wesson Beats Five Aces' Handbook"

I have the feeling that some of you are not taking this seriously!

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Later . . .

I've resolved not to burn any more brain cells on this.

I hope that you'll post the forced win for White before the End Of The World in 2012 or 2037 or whatever it is.

But wait: if I go there, and he goes there, I can ...

Deliver a check! C'mon, stalemate me!

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Later . . .

Sometimes a rubber band will be put around a promoted pawn because an extra piece of the proper type is not available. Maybe the green pawn has already been promoted.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

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Later . . .

As you've probably figured out, I can't avoid looking at this one more time.

Let’s analyze this in a very basic fashion.

Get out a chessboard, a King and a Rook of opposite color. Drop the pieces on the empty board in some random but legal position.
Now, can the R check the K? Yes. No matter where they are, I always see two possible R checks: always one horizontal (i.e., across a rank) and one vertical (i.e., on a file.)

No matter where the K goes, the R will always have two different checks to deliver. Having given a check and driven the K off the rank or off the file, the R is always poised for two more possible checks. (Now, on some of those possible checks the K could respond by capturing the R, but let’s assume for a moment that he isn’t permitted take the R.)

Of course, in a real game, there will be other pieces on the board. Minimally, the other King. When a K and R play against a lone K, the stronger side can force a checkmate by driving the lone K to an edge of the board, where the stronger K covers some escape squares, allowing the R to move to the edge and deliver the mate. Now, the stronger side does have to take care not to place his R diagonally adjacent to the enemy K (unless the friendly K protects the square), or it can be captured, resulting in a draw (lone K vs lone K).

Now, in the position we’ve been looking at all week, there are two dynamics introduced. Until something changes the situation drastically, two things remain true: (1) Black obviously cannot allow White to move his R or queen his advanced Pawn, which he can do as soon as he has a free choice of move, so Black must deny White that choice by forcing another move; and (2) White cannot capture the Black R, as Black has no other moves and would thus be stalemated. (The stalemate is undesirable, as for White to merely draw after being seven Pawns ahead would hand Black a moral victory.)

Therefore, Black must keep checking White every time. If Black loses his R, he achieves his purpose, which is a drawn game.

Now, for virtually all practical purposes, this is the empty board that we played with to introduce this discussion. The other White men (pieces and Pawns) don’t impede the Black R at all. He can capture them to occupy their square should he require the square. And, as getting captured will achieve his purpose, he doesn’t have to fear capture. He can deliver checks right in the White K’s face, and can capture men that are technically “protected.”

The exceptions to the empty board model are few. Black can’t go to a8 or b7 because his own men are there. If he removes the White Pawn from b6 and moves away, he gives his own Pawn some mobility, something that would now permit White to take the Rook and thus surely win. But that’s about all that Black has to worry about.

If White could just find a safe square where it took Black two moves to check him instead of just one, he can use the free move to deliver checkmate. But where? Square g2 looks pretty safe, but you can prove to yourself that having just chased the White K to g2 from f3, the Black R is poised to take one Pawn or the other, giving the necessary check.

If there is a winning position for White, I’d say that it has to involve some action in the upper left corner, with the White K assisting in the checkmate. But I don’t see how he can get there if Black doesn’t let him.

I’d urge forum members, even those of modest playing ability, to set up this position and try to run out of checks playing the Black side.

The Black Rook is like a homicidal conjoined twin of yours: you can’t get away from him, but you can’t kill him without dying yourself.

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Later . . .

I did try the other day, even trying to get the white king to assist as you alluded to, and didn't find a way out of perpetual check or stalemate, either.



I think it's time for the OP to put up and show the solution.

Nick

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--
Nick Theodorakis

Thanks for confirming that, Nick. I hope that the solution won't be a disappointment after all this.

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Later . . .

I was just wondering, does CERN have a chess club?

I could demonstrate or show them the answer!!!!!!

If someone hasn't already solved it.

I imagine CERN have the computing power........

I imagine CERN has a lot of computers, ......., there's always room for one more.

Kind Regards

Terry Giblin

So this is the White Castle gambit?

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If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers.

Invite Garry Kasparov to join you. If you take the Black side of that game you can draw against him.

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Later . . .

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. You seem to be saying that you only want people to post the wrong answer here.

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Welcome to BAUT. Watch your step. Here be monsters.
ToSeek
"Moderators should avoid sounding like moderators unless they're acting as moderators."
The Bad Astronomer
"I would venture to say this list holds true for anyone making any claim, not just one that is ATM."

First someone here, has to solve it.....

You will know if you have solved it or not, the answer is easy.

If you do solve it, all I am asking instead of publishing it here, is to send me a message or email, so not to spoil it for everyone else, who are still trying to solve it.

Kind Regards

Terry Giblin