I remember Ken G quoting someone who said sometihng along the lines of..whats real is that, which, if you stop believing in it, does not go away. Dont remember exact words.

The following is just a though experiment, that will attemt to probe what is real and what is not real. And whether it is even possible to find out.

Ok, so we live in this awesome universe, study it, eat it, breath it, and are free to do pretty much whatever we want in it. Ahh... pretty much. Lets focus on that for a second.

Our universe has certain restrictions, ones that define what is possible and what is not possible. These restrictions are set by the laws of phsics that we know exist, but dont know why they exist (or for what reason).

Now, i can already imagine some people thinking...why does there have to be a reason? it (universe, laws in it) just is, and thats that. If the laws were any different, the structure of the universe would not be what it is now, and i (nor anyone else) would not be here to question why its like that. BUT...If a tree falls in a forest with no one around to hear it, does it still make a sound? YES. Yes it does. Therefore, if the universe was any different it still "would be", or it would still exist. No intelligent being would inhabit and ponder that universe, but it would still exist.

What it boils down to, is that everyhting is made of energy, and it is the very nature, or property, of this substance that formulates the laws of phsics that we observe and obey today.

One tangent topic could be...are there other such substances? is it possible that there are things that are not made of energy out there - a second (different) "element" if you will. And this other element could make up a very different universe, with its own laws and restrictions (which may or may not be suitable for intelligent beings). Or maybe the two substances exist together, maybe there are more thatn two. Could one perhaps evolve into another with time? All things to consider and ponder.

But this is not what i would like to focus on...What i want to focus on is this...

We, in this universe, invented computers. With the computer, we can create a virtual environment, one in which anyhting is possible. Now, with advancements in technology (computing power), we could recteate a galaxy with great detail (100 billion stars, with dark matter, with planetary systems, with asteroids - all made of individual atoms, with photons etc..) Now, with the advances in technology, computers will be able to think and learn like humans. Keep this paragraph in mind.

In this artificial environment, lets say we put a bunch of artificial intelligence "beings" into a system, much like our own, and not "tell" them we put them there, so they are free to do what they want, and learn, and live (since they are as smart as us with the advances in AI).

The big question is.....*drum roll* how would they know that they are "real"? How would they find out that they are in fact inside a computer? what kind of tools or instruments could they possibly invent that would show them that there is a "bigger" world out there? Is it even possible?

We would be able to observe them from our computer screen withough them even knowing it. The only way i can think of, is if we connected devices like cameras and microphones to the "real" or our world, and showed them where we live...Like a portal they can never step through. But, that would be cheating.

What are YOUR thoughts? How could these artificial beings realise that they are not physcsl, but are pulses in OUR computer?

Do you think this could actually be done in the future? say 500 years from now?

AB, this is a most interesting idea, I await responses.

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Simple. As soon as someone pulls the plug*, they're back in reality.*Forgot to pay the light bill, kid fooling around, t-storm interrupted local power, etc.

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A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheistic_solipsism

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"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau

I liked that quote, but it is on someone else's signature.
I expect they would apply the same approaches that we do. They would define reality as the perception of reality, and if there was more than one of them, they would compare notes with each other and refine their definition to whatever unifying sameness they could discern behind all their perceptions. If the articial intelligences have these capabilities, then their world is just as real as ours. They might find that the "laws" are different, or even changing. They might even blink out if someone pulls the plug. In short, no fundamental difference with our own world. And to ask "The Matrix" question, how do you know this has not already happened just as you describe.... to us?

I think there is wery simple reason why laws of physic are like they are now.
our physic laws are most simple set of laws that alows everything to exsist and be self consistent.

of course we can use simulated reality with completely absurd physic, but it will not be self consistent, you will need some machine which takes decisions.
also because of memory and cpu limitations that artifical reality can only exsit in compresed form.
for example how do you simulate chair? will it be unbrekable fundamental part of word, or you are going to make it of some small atoms, so that your AI could convert chair into CO2?
it will not work using brute force , because simulator will be too slow if you try to simulate every atom.
in other way you need clever simulator which will detect what AI is doing and tell him results. for example if he pots water in high tenperature CPU shows bubles, or change water into bunch of spiders, what depends on what you want to happen.
another way is like in matrix movie, just program all laws to the each AI head, and he will just simualte what will happen by itself. however if it somehoh disbelieve in them he can do anything with no restrictions.

Every time I read one of Digix's posts I think there might be a glitch in the matrix.

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"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau

What do you mean?

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" Philip K. Dick.
Not the best turn of phrase in science fiction, perhaps, but still a good aphorism.

P.S. More philosophy.

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"All your bias are belong to us." Ara Pacis
"A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

If the simulation is being run on a Windows computer the artificial beings will soon be into the operating system through all the the security holes that seem to turn up in endless numbers. Maybe we should look for something like that in our universe.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

Ok, to find what exactly?

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There's a philosopher named Nick Bostrom who thinks we may be living in a simulation. Obviously not Microsoft, because it would have crashed some time ago.

http://www.simulation-argument.com/

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As above, so below

Perhaps a link to a different universe, a diferent version of the sumulation?

If the AI i described are possible, they could technically be downloaded into a different computer, which is running a different program for the laws of physics and so on. Like a portal.

What is interesting, however, is if we ever reach a point where we will be able to reconstruct humans from a signal (using some fancy machine), then, technically, the AI in the computer can be reconstructed using the same machine in our, "real" world. That would provide yet another reality for the AI. I wonder if it could feel the difference between the two though, or will it just say you played a dirty trick on it , something similar to being downloaded into a different computer, or being "opened" with a defferent program (not trully real, whatever that is)

But if the AI ARE the code we wrote, then how can they find and be able to control the code, for the purpose of being more "free" to do whatever it is AIs in the computer do, as well as things like travel through wires to a different computer, and spread like a virus.

What are some of these loop holes that would be possible for them to exploit? P.S. I would actually like suggestions, if there are any programmers out there.

That and "glitches in the matrix" would be the obvious ways to try to see if it is a program. That is, if you have a program, there may well be points where the program fails: Bugs in the program, or where a process is too complex to be calculated by the "hardware" and fails. And, there may be ways to access and effectively rewrite the code from the inside - the laws of the programmed universe.

Both those ideas have been in a number of stories.

Note that I don't say "simulation." Whatever the background structure, if you have complex thinking beings in a universe as complex as our own, they are not simulations even if they were based on something else.

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Sounds like the movie The 13th Floor

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Those who cannot attack the thought, instead attack the thinker.

Great spirits have always faced violent protest from mediocre minds

Ahem.

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"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes."
Mark Twain

Avatar courtesy of Bunny.

Oh sure, now we got Intelligent Design in our simulated worlds too? When will it end?

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"The universe is driven by the complex interaction between three ingredients: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest." - G'Kar

This is why we don't have cold fusion. In the original run of our program it worked. By the year 2030 we were using it to send out starships but detailed data for nearby star systems required too much computer memory. So the programmers changed the laws of physics enough so that cold fusion wouldn't work and restarted us from an old backup from before it was invented.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

David Brin has an amusing take on the idea here and here. You can also read a couple stories he wrote about living in a simulation here and here.

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Conserve energy. Commute with the Hamiltonian.