Do you think that if they werent killed off by that mysterious mass extinction and they survived it, some of the dino's would have gotten more intelligent to the point where its just an intelligence arms race? I guess the main word here is potential, did they have the potential to do it?

Is it true before they died off there were clues left behind pointing to hightened intelligence (bigger brains?)

Yes, some of the smaller raptor predators were probably about as smart as a cat, which is a lot smarter than most of the mammals around then. Then, evolution doesn't always favor intelligence... only reproduction.

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my personal opinion is that for an intelligent(technologically) species to evolve it probably needs to go through a tree climbing period of evolution to get those hands, then you can have a hand brain feedback fast evolution that makes the brain bigger and more flexible. Raptors don't fit this bill but may some other species did.

I expect that there are other ways to get to intelligence. (the nature of intelligence itself being an entirely different discussion). Cephalapods, as i recall, are fairly *smart* and some bird species are right up there as well (birds, of course, being the not so distant nephews of raptors).

which brings me to another point - we already have part of the answer because dinos did survive to the present as birds. Which leads me to the conclusion that sentience is more of an accident than something evolution would select for - possibly because intelligence is for a long time a law of diminishing returns unlike some of the more physical attributes.

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I think that intelligence, as in the primates, is definitely the way to go, as they have lost many of the physical attributes such as ability to run fast and claws that help other species survive. The evolutionary choice is, evolve big brains or become extinct.

Tell that to sharks.

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Nature also favors what works. BUT, incase you didn't know, the brain of the short finned mako when compared to their close cousins the great white, meters out to about the same as dogs and men. A mako's brain is that much bigger. They are direct niche competitors with blue sharks but instead of being as scent orientated as the blue their visual systems are more enlarged. (They still have a good sense of smell though) I've seen and read about some fascinating work with makos. I thought the scientist was a nutjob with an agenda but I came away stunned.

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When I was young there was one author that believed raptor like creatures devloped a high tech culture. His whole theory was based on a few shards of pottery with drawings on them from South America. They showed a lizard like being, riding a flying machine, which had beams of light coming from it killing humans on the ground. He believed they died out during the last ice age because they could not handle the cold.

I did not believe it then, nor do I now. However I do believe that the intelligence level of animals is greater than we give them credit for. I knew an African Gray parrot that once played a practical joke on its owners son. That in itself showed a high degree of intellegence, but I latter held an intelligent 15 min. conversation with him about why and how he did it. I have meet humans I can not hold an intelligent 15 min. conversation with. And a birds brain is a whole lot smaller, so size of the brain may not be the main factor in intelligence.

Well in any ice age that humans were alive in, the equator was still a hot place, so they are probably hiding somewhere. (The Amazon has been a rain forest for 27 million years and the New Guinea/ Northern Australian complex has been rain forest for 135 million years. Those are the youngest and oldest rainforests)

A dear friend of mine has two African Greys and I firmly believe you. Foo-bird sings the entire theme from Cops and says "what some?" if you have something she wants. Also asks for water and imitates various electronic devices, falling bombs and shes learned a couple of bird songs.

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"The beauty of that discussion of averages is that you don't have to be an expert in Apollo or in photography in order to see where this time study "analysis" breaks down. You just have to be, well...not an idiot." -JayUtah

Hmmm just because your brain is bigger does that mean you are more intelligent? I'm a pint sized human with a small head, but I can run mental rings around some people who have huge heads.

I've heard the main area of growth in humans is the neo cortex and that increased folds (surface area) is for storing memories.

I've also heard that large brains are an ice age adaption to increase mass so as to keep the core brain temperature up in extreme cold. Some birds are exceedingly intelligent (I've seen cockatoos play tricks on other family pets, the poor dog and cat just weren't up to speed). But birds have small brains, and are intelligent. Perhaps they didn't need the increased brain mass in the ice ages because they started migrating.

There is a correlation between brain size and IQ in humans, but it doesn't apply to individuals. Much of it is caused by malnutrition stunting both growth and mental development. And besides, the smaller your brain, the quicker you can think.

Bird brains are highly efficent because of weight constraints caused by flying. Parrots also can live many decades because they so have time to lean many tricks in their lives. Everyday a cockatoo comes and eats figs off my parents' tree. Normally they come in flocks and are very noisy. However, he always comes alone and is very quiet as he doesn't want the other cockatoos in his group to know about the figs he's found.

So the dinosaurs body plan just didnt have what took to potentially become intelligent?


Also, werent there findings to suggest that some dino's were evolving as social creatures?

The troodons (two dot thingy over second "o") were the ones that had the best shot at it Rhymer. Forward facing eyes, large brain and hands not too specialized toward predation like the raptors, with opposable thumbs. (The Iguandon had the thumb spike, three middle fingers with hoof-like processes and opposable pinkies)

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"The beauty of that discussion of averages is that you don't have to be an expert in Apollo or in photography in order to see where this time study "analysis" breaks down. You just have to be, well...not an idiot." -JayUtah

Raptors etc seem fine to me. Just as good as some egg sucking mammaloid. They were aparently social pack animals, they had forelimbs freed from locomotion that could be adapted for tool use. They are capable of eating humans in bad movies. If an alien had to pick between a raptor and some ratty looking shrew thing 66 million years ago, who do you think she would chose as the most likely to develop intelligence?

A fully opposable thumb gives the human hand its unique power grip. This allows humans to build. Without this, or a functional equivalent, being intelligent will not help.

Corvids (crows and jays and ravens) are very clever, and could be a good indicator for the intelligence of some of the dinos.

I've heard crows imitate red tailed hawks or bald eagles when they wanted to scare other creatures away. One near our house also imitates the sound of a cat -- it's strange to see a crow say "meow" from a perch on a tree.

This page,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvid
says that corvids have the largest brain to body size of any bird.


We had a previous thread on this, I seem to recall bringing up the difference I have observed between a crow and a seagull dropping a clam from up high to break it open -- the seagull drops it at random but the crow knows it has to land on a rock or concrete and that if it lands on mud it will not break.

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Yeah, the sad truth is, more than likely a swift kick would send a real velociraptor packing. (V. mongoliensis the type species) And if you had a baseball or cricket bat you could probably hold your own quite well against a small group of them.

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"The beauty of that discussion of averages is that you don't have to be an expert in Apollo or in photography in order to see where this time study "analysis" breaks down. You just have to be, well...not an idiot." -JayUtah

Interesting. Why do you say this? Perhaps I'm a defeatist but I can't imagine making plans for tomorrow if today a single predator has decided I'm its next meal and all I have are some kicking boots and a baseball bat to prevent that. Nevermind a small group of them.

I can see where I could due some damage with a kicking boot or baseball bat but I can't see surviving that encounter for very long.

Eugene, give yourself some credit. You are an adult male primate,(presumably). One of the most dangerous creatures Natures come up with.

Believe me, when its "Darwin Time" you will adjust accordingly. Most guys do. For instance, two friends of mine were out walking when they were beset by a great dane and a pitbull. They saw the dogs coming at them from a long way off. When the great dane lunged at them my friend Chris, who was set to recieve the attack, grabbed the great danes lower jaw with one hand and twisted it hard. Popped it right out of its hinges. End of problem.The GD ran off shreiking and the pit followed it with his tail tucked. Chris just had minor cuts on his hand. (I didn't think you could get away with that myself)

The velociraptor was quite small. 35 to 50 lbs. Hollow bones. A p.o.'ed lynx would be much more unpleasant by way of comparison, but also not likely to kill an adult human male. The only humans I heard of being killed by lynx were children and a petite woman and a man who was over 65. Plus, unless you are going over and kicking in a nest they are attacking you for food. Barring desperate starvation, would you try to eat a Big Mac that just stove in your ribs?

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"The beauty of that discussion of averages is that you don't have to be an expert in Apollo or in photography in order to see where this time study "analysis" breaks down. You just have to be, well...not an idiot." -JayUtah

I'm not so sure that's a hard-and-fast difference. While visiting the Outer Banks of North Carolina, I witnessed seagulls dropping scallops onto the road on which I was driving. The hardtop was littered with shells...and the gulls overflew a couple-hundred yards of beach and dunes to drop them there. Maybe a crow taught em'.

No argument from me that Corvids are darned smart, though. Ravens are pretty common here.

Edited to add: Dang...forgot about Magpies and Steller's Jays too.

Further edit: stupid spelling tricks.