Aluminum Discovered 2000 years ago?

Pinemarten · #1 (**permalink**) 03-June-2007, 10:46 PM

We started a discussion in the trivia thread

The totally random trivia quiz

about the possibility of aluminium being discovered by a goldsmith, and then both being terminated by the Emperor Tiberius.

The English translation of

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...out=&loc=36.66

the Latin text:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...Elder/36*.html

Quote from the text:
In the reign of Tiberius, it is said, a combination was devised which produced a flexible glass; but the manufactory of the artist was totally destroyed, we are told, in order to prevent the value of copper, silver, and gold, from becoming depreciated.
end quote

See section 36.66?

Also:
"One day a goldsmith in Rome was allowed to show the Emperor Tiberius a dinner plate of a new metal. The plate was very light, and almost as bright as silver. The goldsmith told the Emperor that he had made the metal from plain clay."
From:
http://www.world-aluminium.org/history/antiquity.html

There also reference to some expensive cups and a Persian gift.

I am wondering if we can help solve this puzzle.

I placed this in General Science but it may find a better home in OTB, Q&A, ATM, or even CT. I did a thread search and found no recent posts. If one is found please point it out.

JonClarke · #2 (**permalink**) 03-June-2007, 10:57 PM

I wonder if this was the inspiration behind Tolkien's invention of of the light stron, silverymetal "Mithril"? Tolkien would have read most of the classics and may well have been familiar with the Pliny reference.

Jon

Pinemarten · #3 (**permalink**) 03-June-2007, 11:04 PM

It is quite possible. He may have had a colleague that worked on the puzzle. I was just thinking: Who/what/where did the puzzle first mention aluminium? It may have been in that era.

Note: My spell checker is set for Canada, therefore aluminum becomes aluminium.

Pinemarten · #4 (**permalink**) 03-June-2007, 11:44 PM

Found the reference to the Turkish gift:

"Knowles says, in his Turkish History, p.1273, that in 1610, among other rare presents sent to the King of Spain from the Sophy of Persia, there were six drinking-glasses, made of malleable glass so exquisitely tempered that they could not be broken."

From an earlier link:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...in.+Nat.+36.66

I don't think glass was transparent in those days, so any aluminium metal may be compared to it. If it were heavier it may have been thought of as a metal.

Edit: Found ref. to other text. Same link.

"Dion Cassius and Suetonius tell a similar story; and, according to one account, Tiberius ordered the artist to be put to death."

Lord Jubjub · #5 (**permalink**) 04-June-2007, 01:49 AM

Considering the difficulty of even 19th century science to isolate aluminum, I can NOT imagine someone from 2000 years ago accidently purifying it.

Pinemarten · #6 (**permalink**) 04-June-2007, 02:07 AM

I don't think it was an accident. Pliny's works (from the same link) describe many processes by smiths and glass makers that are similar.
I did a quick Wiki, and the conversion of the compounds in natural form to aluminium metal aren't that difficult.
The technology was sufficient at the time, and with a bit of experimentation it seems plausible.

Hans · #7 (**permalink**) 05-June-2007, 07:27 AM

Might it have been tin, pewter or a zinc compound?

Pinemarten · #8 (**permalink**) 05-June-2007, 09:42 AM

I doubt it. Tin and zinc were common then. Pewter is a tin copper alloy, it was probably known, and not worth very much.

JohnD · #9 (**permalink**) 05-June-2007, 12:50 PM

Pm,
I think that the Romans would have been very familiar with transparent glass. Just Google Image for "roman glass" to see many examples. Sure, cheap glass was crude, but something presented to the Emperor would have been fine clear glass.

But the much later reference (1610) describes the drinking vessels as of 'malleable glass' - I presume workable by hammering, like a metal and not brittle like our 'glass'. Surely this is some mis-translation? Unless the secret of clear glass had been lost to Spain by the 17th century.

John

John

Ronald Brak · #10 (**permalink**) 05-June-2007, 01:08 PM

Quote:

But the much later reference (1610) describes the drinking vessels as of 'malleable glass' - I presume workable by hammering, like a metal and not brittle like our 'glass'.

Malleable, malleable, mallus = hammer, Hammer and chisel - Crystal goblets made by chiselling?

(This sounds like Reed Richards of the Fantastic Four - a bit of a stretch.)

Pinemarten · #11 (**permalink**) 05-June-2007, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnD

Pm,
I think that the Romans would have been very familiar with transparent glass. Just Google Image for "roman glass" to see many examples. Sure, cheap glass was crude, but something presented to the Emperor would have been fine clear glass.

But the much later reference (1610) describes the drinking vessels as of 'malleable glass' - I presume workable by hammering, like a metal and not brittle like our 'glass'. Surely this is some mis-translation? Unless the secret of clear glass had been lost to Spain by the 17th century.

John

John

I stand corrected.

Transparent glass did exist. The point I was trying to make was that aluminum is so light that it may have been compared to opaque glass at the time, as opposed to any metal.

"The plate was very light, and almost as bright as silver. The goldsmith told the Emperor that he had made the metal from plain clay."

The 'plain clay' may have contained alum or alumina:

"Marggraf showed that alumina is one of the constituents of alum, but that this earth possesses peculiar properties, and is one of the ingredients in common clay."

From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alum

I think I saw alum referred to in the Pliny text, so it was known at the time.

I still haven't found any text on the Persian gift or the Nero 'cups' as well as the Dion Cassius and Suetonius versions of the story.

Swift · #12 (**permalink**) 06-June-2007, 01:41 PM

The problem isn't the availability of alumina or aluminum salts. The problem is the reduction of them to aluminum metal. I very much doubt that this was done by the Romans. A reference to a particular plate doesn't really prove it (personally I'd vote for fiction or glass).

A quick goggle found this very detailed discussion (they seem to lean towards fiction).

Pinemarten · #13 (**permalink**) 06-June-2007, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swift

The problem isn't the availability of alumina or aluminum salts. The problem is the reduction of them to aluminum metal. I very much doubt that this was done by the Romans. A reference to a particular plate doesn't really prove it (personally I'd vote for fiction or glass).

A quick goggle found this very detailed discussion (they seem to lean towards fiction).

Thanks for the link.

They seem to conclude "not enough evidence". Tiberius was too thorough. I keep wondering what would cause him to execute the smith and destroy his factory.
They have no mention of the Persian gift nor the Nero cups, (which I am still looking for detail on), but they do mention controversial ancient Chinese aluminum, which I hadn't heard of before. I have wondered if there was a possibility that they had discovered it as well.

The plot thins and thickens at the same time. I'm off to google-land again.

Swift · #14 (**permalink**) 06-June-2007, 09:34 PM

There is also another part of the question. I can not rule out that under some strange set of circumstances, maybe some Roman found some set of conditions to make some aluminum metal and crafted it into an object. But given that we have not found aluminum artifacts, no physical evidence of its production, nor any written description of a process, it would seem apparent that aluminum production was not common practice, to say the least. And so the fact that they made it once, but never repeated enough to actual have an effect on anything, makes such a discovery pretty irrelevant, IMHO.

Pinemarten · #15 (**permalink**) 06-June-2007, 10:10 PM

The Romans also invented the steam engine, but never thought of it as a power source. It was just a curiosity or a mere toy. The Babylon battery is another example. Imagine if we had developed aluminum, steam power, and electricity 2000 years ago?
Artifacts may exist in secret collections, such as the Vatican, or others. The Persian gift should still exist. Their value would be merely scientific or historic and therefore why make their existence known. The Chinese ones seem to exist, but it appears authentication is difficult.
If the process were discovered elsewhere/when they may have realized that the effort to create it was worth more than any benefits they may have thought of, and not bothered to take it further, or even record it.
When it was developed in the 19th century, it was rare until electricity was used to mass produce it.

Ara Pacis · #16 (**permalink**) 07-June-2007, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonClarke

I wonder if this was the inspiration behind Tolkien's invention of of the light stron, silverymetal "Mithril"? Tolkien would have read most of the classics and may well have been familiar with the Pliny reference.

Jon

I always thought the better analogue would be titanium.

JohnD · #17 (**permalink**) 08-June-2007, 10:20 PM

A read of the Wikipedia article on aluminum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium convinced me of how unlikely it would be for a Roman to be able to refine enough of the metal for any real object. It rapidly work hardens, so that splitting and tearing happen when you hammer it, unless it is frequently annealed. A craftsman would soon catch onto that, but other metals that such a Roman craftsmen would be familiar with, gold and silver, do not work harden. So he would find that the metal was a pain to work with, and although it does not corrode, it does not keep its polish like gold, or to a lesser extent, silver. (in the Roman environment, unpolluted with sulphur smoke, silver would keep its polish much longer) I can't see a Roman finding this soft, difficult to work metal, that doesn't take a good shine or an edge to be of any interest at all.

The article also taught me that Sir Humphrey Davy, who first isolated it in the Modern Era, called it "aluminum", so henceforth I shall bow to the Colonial spelling.

John

publiusr · #18 (**permalink**) 09-June-2007, 07:28 PM

Allie Oop and his beercans...

jami cat · #19 (**permalink**) 09-June-2007, 11:07 PM

I doubt that they could refine it in any useful amount.
But...
They could have maybe found some in the slag from refining other metals in a furnace.

View Poll Results: Ancient Aluminium.
Could have existed.	10	55.56%
I doubt it.	10	55.56%
Tiberius destroyed too much to prove it.	1	5.56%
This thread will help solve the puzzle.	2	11.11%
I don't respond to polls.	1	5.56%
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