This is an interesting study recently carried out on human behaviour which correlates dishonest behaviour with a Determinist worldview.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0129125354.htm

"Although the results of this study point to a significant value in believing that free will exists, it clearly raises some significant societal questions about personal beliefs and personal behavior."

Another nail in the coffin for the Determinist views of philosophers like Daniel Dennett.

I am a believer in a deterministic universe, and by no means does this to me nail anything into any coffin.

I was specifically talking about philosphers such as Dennett who have built their careers on a Deterministic worldview.

But as far as Determinism goes; i would have to disagree with you. I think the idea of Determinism should have died with the classical worldview pre- quantum theory.

But sticking to the topic of the thread and the attached paper:
human reaction to a Deterministic universe.

I think this study shows that the knowledge of a Deterministic universe (whether true or false) is counter productive to progress and technological evolution...at least in humans. Humans need to think they can make a difference with their free-will etc...If we all give up because we think the future is "written" or our destiny has already been decided for us as individuals, it has a very unhealthy impact on civilisation.

You may be a very moral person yourself but this study shows a determinist worldview encourages some people to cheat, whereas the group who believed in free-will, did the work the hard way. So they would have learnt more than the determinists who decided to cheat.

Not at all./ Sure, there is a limitation on reality brought about through the uncertainty principle, but it is by no means evidence that nothing isn't determined... only from our limited existences.

Now if one was to revert to God... then i beleive the perspective changes.

Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principle is actually the lesser interdeterminstic feature of QM.

The free-will of the experimenter is far more indeterministic than HUP. For instance in Schrodingers Cat, the only reason there is an alive/dead value is because the experimenter's free-will chose such an experiment.

Another example of the free-will inherent in QM is the observers ability to make a photon behave as a wave or as a particle.

My personal view is that the more sophisticated a biological system becomes (as in humans) the more our free-will challenges the primordial determinism of the universe. Quantum mechanics was a paradigm shift in the abilties of humans to challenge the more deterministic forces.

Determnism is only primary if we sit on earth and do nothing, and casually wait for a comet to destroy humanity.

Whether or not the Deterministic view is valid or not, we are talking about scales of unpredictability.

So dense is this unpredictability that we operate under the illusion of Free Will, regardless as to whether or not it is real or not.

I am a very strong advocate for a Godless Free Will. Not necessarily that there is a Divine free will, that is separate from our physical brains- But rather that even if the deterministic system is in force, it is utterly unpredictable at our scale.

We therefore, have to choose. Have to make things happen. We alone have the ability to govern what choices we make, how we make them, how we stand by them.
Whether it was determined or not really doesn't matter. As Long as I still have the perception of choice- the end result remains the same.


C'mon now. People will take any old reason to be lazy. Automatic transmissions in cars etc.
During the cold war people said, "Don't bother going to College, nuclear War is coming anyway."
The study, is like most studies- Crap.

You want study results? My study says that a great many people are lazy boneheads and it doesn't matter what the true nature of a given situation is, they will try to perceive it in whichever way makes an excuse for them to be lazy boneheads.

Jetlack, I think you do not necessarily understand how determinism works, much less so considering that you seemed to be advocating that Conscious observation affects quantum behavior in other threads.

neverfly,

"Jetlack, I think you do not necessarily understand how determinism works, much less so considering that you seemed to be advocating that Conscious observation affects quantum behavior in other threads."

Observation is proven to affect quantum behaviour. We can chose whether a photon behaves as a wave or a particle - common knowledge. The argument is whether the same affect can be induced with no observer.

And you know how Determinism works? How can you when its not even proven. You cant know how it works unless you can show me the cosmic blueprint with a deterministic algorithm that is a primary law of the universe.

If you've found the mythical hidden variable please do tell. Your nobel is waiting :-)

Please enlighten me how it has been proven?

No, we can choose how we perceive something. That is common knowledge.

Now if you don't know that then what is the Control? How can you claim that observation affects quantum action is proven when you do not know if it behaves the same as when unobserved? Major unscientific contradiction right there...

No I do not know that determinism is Universal Law, nor can I prove it. I can however, provide you with evidence in its favor.
What you said about a cosmic blueprint has nothing to do with scientific procedure- rather what it would take to personally convince you.

Likewise, if you can find the hidden Divine Value that shows that our consciousness exists as a separate entity from our brains.

Consciousness causes collapse is a controversial interpretation of quantum mechanics with little evidential support. Jetlack, if you want to advocate this position, go for it. But please do us a favor and confine it to the ATM forum, lest you confuse gullible folks like me into thinking this is somehow a part of mainstream science, which it is not.

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Deterministic events happen all the time in a Bohmian Model of the universe. Even Einstien beleived that the universe was determined. These great minds cannot be overuled so easily.

This is an appeal to authority...
But a well stated one.

This post was about determinism. I did'nt bring up concious collpase on this thread. So maybe your warning is better suited to neverfly who inserted my previously stated views on "conscious collapse" into this thread :-)

Yes but that's the never ending search for hidden variables. I like Bohm too but dont agree with that part of his thinking.

neverfly,

"Please enlighten me how it has been proven?"

Oh about a thousand experiments. Wheeler's "Delayed choice" is one you should google.

"Major unscientific contradiction right there..."

Yes more evidence you dont have a clue about qm :-)

"Likewise, if you can find the hidden Divine Value that shows that our consciousness exists as a separate entity from our brains"

Something we call "consciousness" most certainly exists and most people except extreme materialists would agree with that.

The defintion of "consciousness" is another question. I never said i had the answer to that; though i prefer something along the lines of David Chalmer's hard problem.

Bohm wasn't the only one. Dr. Fred A Wolf and even Dr. Hoyle are also be taken into consideration - among others.

Googled it and got several hits. Let's try good O'l Wikipedia:
Bold Mine:
Wheelers words:
What this tells me is that we have difficulty defining the natural state. However, this does not mean that our consciousness affects the natural state. Only that our experiments are such that it will "bring to light' what was hidden. The Perceptions we get are based solely on our limitations in perception.

You cannot see a hypercube. It is a four dimensional construct. You are incapable of seeing one. However if you do an experiment that presents a distorted view of one in order to "See" one for study- your consciousness had no affect on that natural state- You only created a set condition to enable you to observe what you normally cannot observe. Sadly, the image suffers a bit of distortion.

You seem to be cherry picking hoping to find evidence to support your belief.

No, it was evidence that you contradicted yourself.
I'm inviting you to discuss this here in this old thread. There we can cover definitions of consciousness and make a solid foundation.
Rather than to hijack this thread.

Yes you did, and you even tried to assert your own view as "common knowledge", when you said this:

And you did it again just now, when you tried to cite Wheeler's delayed choice experiment as support for your own view.

I'll ask again: if you're going to advocate an ATM view, like consciousness causes collapse, keep it to ATM.

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