If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum > Space and Astronomy > General Science
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 06:02 PM
Ross PK81 Ross PK81 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 196
Default Conciousness and cutting a brain in half, what would happen?

Okay, say there was a body stood next to me, without a brain inside it's head.

Let's just say this is possible: If someone were to open my skull, cut my brain in half and put half of it in the other persons empty head, and connect it to the things it needs to be connected too and that half of a brain is still alive.

Where would I be? You know, I as in me that's here right know experiencing reality.

This certainly is mind boggling. I can't see myself being in two bodies at once experiencing what both bodies are seeing and hearing, but then I can't see how I could split into two seperate me's because I'm only one. If I could, what would determine which of the two me's is me, if there is another me, that would suggest there is already another person in my brain that I'm unaware of.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 06:20 PM
antoniseb's Avatar
antoniseb antoniseb is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 14,208
Default

Hi Ross PK81,

Please only ask questions about Astronomy and Spaceflight in our Q&A section. I have moved this post from there to General Science.
Also, if the question is about commercial astronomy equipment or cameras, ask that in the Astronomical Observing, Equipment, and Accessories section.
__________________
Forming opinions as we speak
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 06:25 PM
HenrikOlsen's Avatar
HenrikOlsen HenrikOlsen is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Denmark 55.6773° N 12.3610° E
Posts: 4,180
Send a message via MSN to HenrikOlsen Send a message via Yahoo to HenrikOlsen
Default

Apart from the transfer to a different body, the Split-brain situation has been studied intensely, perhaps you can get some answers from the link.
__________________
An emperor without enemies, a king without a kingdom, supported in life by the willing tribute of a free people.
Cincinnati Enquirer headline about Emperor Norton I
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 06:51 PM
Larry Jacks Larry Jacks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,048
Default

Split brain surgery has some interesting side effects. I've seen examples where a test subject has been shown a picture of something to one eye following the surgery. Depending on which eye saw the image of an object, he might not be able to speak the object's name but could write it or draw a picture of it.

There is a procedure called hemispherectomy where half of the brain is removed. It is still a rare procedure but has proven useful in treating people who suffer many seizures every day. It is most often performed on young children. IIRC, the recovery is more problematic after puberty.

One side effect Canadian neurosurgeon Kenneth McKenzie reported in 1938 after a hemispherectomy on a 16-year-old girl who suffered a stroke was that her seizures stopped. Nowadays, the surgery is performed on patients who suffer dozens of seizures every day that resist all medication, and which are due to conditions that mostly afflict one hemisphere. "These disorders are often progressive and damage the rest of the brain if not treated," University of California, Los Angeles, neurosurgeon Gary Mathern says. Freeman concurs: "Hemispherectomy is something that one only does when the alternatives are worse."

Anatomical hemispherectomies involve the removal of the entire hemisphere, whereas functional hemispherectomies only take out parts of a hemisphere, as well as severing the corpus callosum, the fiber bundle that connects the two halves of the brain. The evacuated cavity is left empty, filling with cerebrospinal fluid in a day or so.

The strength of anatomical hemispherectomies, a specialty of Hopkins, lies in the fact that "leaving even a little bit of brain behind can lead seizures to return," Freeman says. On the other hand, functional hemispherectomies, which U.C.L.A. surgeons usually perform, lead to less blood loss. "Our patients are usually under two years of age, so they have less blood to lose," Mathern says. Most Hopkins hemispherectomy patients are five to 10 years old.

Neurosurgeons have performed the operation on children as young as three months old. Astonishingly, memory and personality develop normally. A recent study found that 86 percent of the 111 children who underwent hemispherectomy at Hopkins between 1975 and 2001 are either seizure-free or have nondisabling seizures that do not require medication. The patients who still suffer seizures usually have congenital defects or developmental abnormalities, where brain damage is often not confined to just one hemisphere, Freeman explains.

Another study found that children that underwent hemispherectomies often improved academically once their seizures stopped. "One was champion bowler of her class, one was chess champion of his state, and others are in college doing very nicely," Freeman says.

Of course, the operation has its downside: "You can walk, run—some dance or skip—but you lose use of the hand opposite of the hemisphere that was removed. You have little function in that arm and vision on that side is lost," Freeman says.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 06:58 PM
grant hutchison grant hutchison is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,588
Default

It's probably a mistake to think that there's a single, persistent and coherent "you" inside your brain in the first place, even though it feels that way.
From cognitive science, the picture is really more like a loose and varying affiliation of various "consciousness applets", hosted in both hemispheres.
So the result of your thought experiment would likely be two impaired versions of your original consciousness, each lacking certain facilities but perhaps both enjoying a sense of continuity with the original "you". We know, for instance, that people can have improbably large chunks of cortex removed under local anaesthesia and retain a sense of continuous "self" throughout the process.

Grant Hutchison
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 08:12 PM
ravens_cry's Avatar
ravens_cry ravens_cry is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 539
Default

True, but this is our brain we are talking about, there is a you. behind the conciseness curtain, yes there is a lot of things happening, but just like we only have one body, but many parts and organs and cells, we only have one mind. Of course, this is a barrier to studying the mind, just like thinking of the body as a whole in and of itself can make understanding the different parts problematic.
__________________
"The Internet is really, really great..."
Avenue Q
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 08:32 PM
grant hutchison grant hutchison is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,588
Default

My point is that it just feels like you have one mind: but in reality "you" are just a series of neural patterns that share a sense of continuity. Bits of your brain light up, other bits go dark, but "you" persist.
If we put bits of that "you" into two heads (or two separated hemispheres in the same head), then we shouldn't be surprised if both bits share a sense of continuity with the original "you".

Grant Hutchison
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 08:33 PM
Bozola's Avatar
Bozola Bozola is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 485
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravens_cry View Post
True, but this is our brain we are talking about, there is a you. behind the conciseness curtain, yes there is a lot of things happening, but just like we only have one body, but many parts and organs and cells, we only have one mind. Of course, this is a barrier to studying the mind, just like thinking of the body as a whole in and of itself can make understanding the different parts problematic.
Are you saying that Mr.Spanky and all the other voices in my head aren't real? Well, that's a bit of turn up for the plus-fours, I can tell you.
__________________
The views expressed are the febrile product of an overactive imagination of a person who in shadows sees the gyrating Elvis-like ghost of Leonid Brezhnev.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 08:42 PM
Noclevername's Avatar
Noclevername Noclevername is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 10,606
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
My point is that it just feels like you have one mind: but in reality "you" are just a series of neural patterns that share a sense of continuity. Bits of your brain light up, other bits go dark, but "you" persist.
If we put bits of that "you" into two heads (or two separated hemispheres in the same head), then we shouldn't be surprised if both bits share a sense of continuity with the original "you".

Grant Hutchison
You only feel like you have one body, but it's actually made up of millions of cells and dozens of organs.

You think you drive a car, but actually you're driving hundreds of separate bits of metal, plasic, rubber, and gasoline.

One thing can be made up of parts, y'know. Minds included.


ADDED: And you can change the tires on it without making it a "different car".
__________________
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
Illuminati's Razor-The most complicatedly evil answer is usually the most correct answer. - Fazor
"Every book is a children's book if the kid can read." - Mitch Hedberg
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 08:53 PM
grant hutchison grant hutchison is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,588
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
One thing can be made up of parts, y'know. Minds included.


ADDED: And you can change the tires on it without making it a "different car".
My point, exactly.

Grant Hutchison
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 08:59 PM
Fazor's Avatar
Fazor Fazor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Near Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 3,744
Default

Well, technically since the areas of your brain that control vital operations of your body not on both hemispheres, likely both bodies would be dead. I know, that's no fun.

Consiousness, best I can tell, is really just a collection of different sensations brought about by various senses. Or, as others have said with less words and more clarity; it's not a single thing, but a collection of things. Therefore, if you did manage to "split brain" transplant into an empty body, you'd have two un-shared consiousnesses, though they'd each be made up of whatever senosory abilities they ended up with.

To look at it another way, say each half devlopes into a fully-functional brain. Now you're still standing next to the other body. You experience the pain from the surgery to open your skull. You smell the aneseptic smell of a hospital room. And you see your friend Bill looking at you with his one un-decomposed eye.

Bill feels the pain from his skull being opened (and from the various body parts that decomposed partially until you generously donated your brain). He feels a draft, because the nurses forgot to tie closed his hospital gown. He smells the aneseptic smell of the hospital room, but also the gas he just passed that hasn't wafted your way quite yet. And he sees you, looking at him with an expression of pure horror as you realize you just brought a zombie to life.

There you have two completely seperate consiousnesses. Now you may ask if you two will "think alike"...but our ability to reason is learned, and based off our life experiences. Assuming those were transfered aswell, then yes, at first you'd probably think pretty much alike...but personalities would diverge based on the experiences you have after the split.

That's my best stab at it, but I'm not a doctor (and I don't play one on tv!)...so take it for what it's worth.
__________________
I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.

"A long time ago, yet somehow in the future"
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 09:02 PM
Ross PK81 Ross PK81 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 196
Default

I think I'm understanding this better (now I've started having a drink, go figure).

Half of me, my conciousness would be in one body, the other half in the other body. There wouldn't be any connection between the two halfs, the conciousness in one half will think 'What has determined 'me' to jump into this body but not the other one?', and vise versa.

But you've got to be half of what you are, so maybe you would only be half as self aware as what you were if that makes any sense, as in you're more zombiefied.

I mean where does it stop and why, what about cutting one of the halfs into another half, then that half into half until you end up with an atom? Are atoms concious? Maybe, but the self awareness is so small that it's almost as though it doesn't exist.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 09:04 PM
HenrikOlsen's Avatar
HenrikOlsen HenrikOlsen is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Denmark 55.6773° N 12.3610° E
Posts: 4,180
Send a message via MSN to HenrikOlsen Send a message via Yahoo to HenrikOlsen
Default

Since the two halves of the brain "think" in fundamentally different ways, from the moment they are split into two they will have completely different ways to react to the situation, though both will be "you" to their own understanding.
__________________
An emperor without enemies, a king without a kingdom, supported in life by the willing tribute of a free people.
Cincinnati Enquirer headline about Emperor Norton I
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 09:06 PM
Van Rijn's Avatar
Van Rijn Van Rijn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 9,301
Default

Some folks have had a corpus callosotomy. That severely reduces the communication between the hemispheres. I believe I remember one story where a fellow started strangling his wife with one hand, and used the other hand to pull it off of her. Apparently, he was of two minds on the subject. (And, no, he wasn't Dr. Strangelove.)
__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 09:10 PM
Ross PK81 Ross PK81 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 196
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
Some folks have had a corpus callosotomy. That severely reduces the communication between the hemispheres. I believe I remember one story where a fellow started strangling his wife with one hand, and used the other hand to pull it off of her. Apparently, he was of two minds on the subject. (And, no, he wasn't Dr. Strangelove.)
So I guess, If every human being on earth had their brains connected to each other, we'd just be 'one' conciousness. I wonder if it'd feel any different? Would that one conciousness be way way way more aware of reality than what any one single person is? It's got to if it would lessen with a brain continually being cut into half.
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 09:26 PM
Ross PK81 Ross PK81 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 196
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
You only feel like you have one body, but it's actually made up of millions of cells and dozens of organs.

You think you drive a car, but actually you're driving hundreds of separate bits of metal, plasic, rubber, and gasoline.

One thing can be made up of parts, y'know. Minds included.


ADDED: And you can change the tires on it without making it a "different car".
If conciousness can be made up of several parts, I guess that would mean it can be created from a replica brain made out of microchips and circuit boards.

It's still hard to imagine that happening though.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 10:11 PM
Joe Durnavich Joe Durnavich is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 601
Default

I suppose that those who have had hemispherectomies have been lucky that the surgeon in each case removed the hemisphere that did not have the mind in it. Or, should we say the patients had a half-mind afterward?
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 10:20 PM
grant hutchison grant hutchison is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,588
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Durnavich View Post
I suppose that those who have had hemispherectomies have been lucky that the surgeon in each case removed the hemisphere that did not have the mind in it.
In each case, the surgeon removed about half the resources available to sustain consciousness. Fortunately, that doesn't seem to disrupt the sense of self that is a part of consciousness.

Grant Hutchison
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 11:34 PM
Joe Durnavich Joe Durnavich is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 601
Default

Fortunately, that doesn't seem to disrupt the sense of self that is a part of consciousness.

Grant, how do we know that to be true? What criteria tells us this "sense of self" is intact?
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 21-March-2008, 11:50 PM
HenrikOlsen's Avatar
HenrikOlsen HenrikOlsen is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Denmark 55.6773° N 12.3610° E
Posts: 4,180
Send a message via MSN to HenrikOlsen Send a message via Yahoo to HenrikOlsen
Default