Wanna bet? Despite all kinds of studies, court cases, etc. folks still try to prohibit NASA from launching nuclear powered spacecraft.

__________________
We want our children to go to the planets. Burt Rutan 6/21/04
Tuckers! Science! Automotive Oddities! Boycott Trek XI! Building my hot rod with the help of the intarwebs Those who would delay scientific progress for a little temporary prosperity shall have neither.

I agree. There are no other real public forums for the disclosures and reassurances that these people are looking for. Let the truth speak for itself.


I agree. Personally I have enough to consider at my tender age with trying to start a career and to make enough money to keep fed and clothed, and housed. I want to see that the proper process is followed and be reassured.


I agree. Not everyone is a nuclear physicist. Let there be a public hearing. I see no reason to for the rest of us to "just trust the scientists who do understand particle physics" either.


I hate this idea that it is a waste of money. It isn't a waste of money to provide evidence that this is safe. Let there be a public hearing and let the records be made public and examined. I judicial hearing encourages this by having the weight of the legal system behind requests for information.

There should be curbs to avoid abuse, but if each case represents a significantly different danger, I think they should be heard.

I understand your individual yes/no's, but I'm not sure they add up in this case. These people have been asking this same question over and over for years and keep getting the same answer from multiple sources. At some point it crosses the line from benign ignorance and concern to annoyance and worse (maybe like the difference between been a fan and being a stalker of a celebrity).

Now CERN and Fermilab will waste a lot of money defending themselves; money that was better spent on physics.

__________________
At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009

First, how do you know there has not been public hearings? Do you know what evidence has already been presented? For example, you might want to look at these two publications (from 2003 and 1999 respectively)

http://doc.cern.ch/yellowrep/2003/2003-001/p1.pdf
http://doc.cern.ch//archive/electron...10/9910333.pdf

Second, if you don't trust the scientists who are running the project, why will you trust them at a public hearing? What do you require to prove that it is safe?

__________________
At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009

I want to save the world, too.
Only from something it actually needs to be saved from.
Like Global Warming.
Although it would be more fun to save the world from invading Martians or a mad scientist, these things will probably never happen, so I will content myself with fighting Global Warming.

__________________
"If you think the LHC will create black holes, you might as well believe Hobbits are at the bottom of your garden."- Dr. Mike Inglis
Rovers forever! - ToSeek
"Carl Sagan sent a message to ET,
Neil Armstrong walked in the Sea of Tranquility
Steve Squyers built Spirit and Opportunity
Dan Haylen upchucked in zero gravity." -Brent Simon, The Space Camp Song

Kai, why does the world need to be saved from global warming? Because somebody who stands to make billions off of taxing air said it was bad? I would love the rest of the world to have my climate.

Hey, Chicago! your still snowing right? My jasmine started blooming four weeks ago. Getting real nice now.

__________________
Gimme a minute to read through Jay's latest observations...

I readily admit that I don't know enough to know if the concerns covered in this lawsuit are different than those covered in the public hearings to date. I am not the one to make such a determination. However, if the concerns are different and with merit, new hearings should be held.


Because the scientists that are running the project have a vested interest in seeing it go through. In a public hearing there can at least be an attempt at setting up a dispassionate panel.

Ya know Swift, there is nothing sacred about scientists. They have been found to fake results and commit fraud just like every sector of society. There should be an "independent oversight" group that has no interest in whether the project goes ahead or not.

I never said that the lawsuit in this case should, or should not, go ahead. I said that if it was determined to cover concerns that were SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT than those that have gone before, the lawsuit should go through.

I doubt the vast majority of Joe public are worried that they're going to be swallowed up in a gigantic black hole, but I see what you mean and thinking about i logically maybe I was overly harsh in my first assessment. ( I talk nonsense half the time so who am I to call them ).

But the "concerns" expressed are not different. The things these two are objecting to (mini-black holes and strangelets) are the same things covered in those two articles Swift linked to. These are simply people who have made up their minds that scientists are evil (or at least amoral) and never think about the possible consequences of their work. They objected to BNL and the RHIC this way. They objected for FNAL this way, and now they've decided to sue CERN in typical American fashion. They are like the antivaccinationists who are convinced that vaccines cause autism and no amount of scientific study will convince them otherwise.

As I said, it's been done. And such a panel would be far from dispassionate with scare mongers like our two litigants.

Yes, scientists are people. But since you can't fool mother nature those who commit scientific fraud are found out (cold fusion anyone) and exposed. This work did go through independent oversight. And, as you could read for yourself, there is no substantial difference between this lawsuit and earlier expressions of concerns from these two "concerned citizens." Their allegations are without merit and the suit is frivolous.

__________________
"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - William Thompson, 1st Baron Lord Kelvin

"If it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be, but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic!" - Tweedledee

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. - Wolfgang Pauli

What is wrong with delaying the project to do a proper environmental assessment like they have asked for?

__________________
Fame, glory adventure, a cyber warrior craves not these things.

It isn't a "proper environmental assessment" that they are after. We already know what effects particle accelerators have on the environment, which is one reason why they are (mostly) underground. Heck, DESY passes right under the streets of Hamburg! It's not as if the LHC represents anything new, it's just bigger and more powerful than anything we have ever built. It is also a lot less powerful than what Nature throws at the Earth every day, as has been pointed out many, many times. And I'm sure CERN has filed mountains of paperwork with the EU and the Swiss and French governments already along these lines.

No, this is just unreasoning irrational fear at work here. We have a name for it. We call it "superstition".

__________________
Microsoft is over if you want it.

The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

Just to add to what Celestial Mechanic said...

How do you know a proper assessment wasn't done? Did you read the reports I linked to?

Second, it is a waste of time and money. Its not like you can just put everything in stasis. Staff still has to be paid, even if they are just waiting for approval. And if you say, lay them off, then you'll have to rehire people when the project starts up again, all a big waste of money better spent on physics. Not to mention the money to be spent on attorney fees defending the lab from this nonsense.

As Eta C said, these people have just made up their minds that they are "right" and are doing everything they can to get their way. There is no "proper envinromental assessment" that will convince them otherwise.

__________________
At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009

How about one done with a clue-by-4?

__________________
We want our children to go to the planets. Burt Rutan 6/21/04
Tuckers! Science! Automotive Oddities! Boycott Trek XI! Building my hot rod with the help of the intarwebs Those who would delay scientific progress for a little temporary prosperity shall have neither.

LOL! I'm going to have to use that one Tucker! Sounds like something Jayne Cobb in the Serenity series would have said.

__________________
Gimme a minute to read through Jay's latest observations...

Technically, I think that that is something that should be used on Jayne, prolly said by Mal.

Mal: Why does he always yell my name in the middle of a robbery?

__________________
Gimme a minute to read through Jay's latest observations...