If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum > Space and Astronomy > General Science
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

View Poll Results: does any of this make sense
yes 8 38.10%
no 12 57.14%
would like to help 1 4.76%
afraid of nuclear 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 05:52 PM
ace holmes ace holmes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 81
Default Radioisotope thermal generator nuclear vehicle

I'm not a genius im only an engineer.
But why not build a car using nuclear decay to power a generator
which powers an electric motor to drive the car
Many people have suggested plutonium 238 not sutable for clean bombs but great for a dirty bomb .
how about strontium 90 never been assosiated with weapons has a halflife 32 years (most people do keep cars that long) and can reach a temp of 800 celcius and its called a waste product which they just end up storing in underground vaults.
Its is a beta decay which requires more sheilding than alpha decay
so why not put the pellets in a sythetic diamond case to sheild the radiation before it even reaches the liquid but not insulate the heat (because diamond is the best know conductor of heat) the strontium will heat liquid helium to the critical point 176 celcius. the steam turns a turbine and generates electricity
the helium then passes through a thermal electric cooler making it easily compressable equiring less energy
the helium is then recommpressed into a tank to a pressure of 5000psi then strontium in the tank reboils the liquid helium.
people have suggesteed solar powered cars and puting turbines to charge a battery but how about using solar to only power the 10 hp compressor and a dozen mini tubine to power the thermal electric cooler.
so this would be a closed circuit the helium never leaves lasts minimum of 20 years
also this type of rtg would be more efficent compared to regular rtg which convert heat dirrectly to electricity

Last edited by ace holmes : 04-April-2008 at 09:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 06:23 PM
alainprice alainprice is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 525
Default

Is liquid helium workable at these temperatures?

5000 psi for it to remain liquid at room temperature, is that correct?
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 06:58 PM
Hornblower Hornblower is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Falls Church, VA (near Washington, DC)
Posts: 884
Default

In my opinion, total madness to put that radioactive hazmat in the hands of the general public. It would make more sense to have nuclear power in secure plants and use the power to refine hydrogen for use as motor fuel.

I will leave it to qualified engineers to evaluate your idea for the diamond shielding and the engine.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 08:04 PM
ace holmes ace holmes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 81
Default

the helium is liquid when first compressed but when reaches critical point its gas at any pressure (look up critical point on wiki)
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 08:09 PM
alainprice alainprice is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 525
Default

I know the critical point is the point at which the substance loses the ability to be either liquid or gas.

This doesn't address the feasability of having pressures of 5000 psi in a commercial vehicle.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 08:10 PM
ace holmes ace holmes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 81
Default

plus strontium is only dangerous if eaten and synthetic diamond is only 60 per ct. costing only $600.00 to make the rod casing
compared to pu238 which is themost dangerous poisonous substance on earth

Last edited by ace holmes : 04-April-2008 at 09:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 08:40 PM
Neverfly Neverfly is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,593
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ace holmes View Post
plus strontium is only dangerous if eaten and synthetic diamond is only 60 per ct. costing only $600.00 to make the rod casing
How much does strontium cost?
Did you say it's a by product? From what?
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 09:01 PM
ace holmes ace holmes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 81
Default

in 1990 it cost $5.00 an oz.
in 2004 it cost $20.00 a gram
a byproduct of nuclear fall out and fission also found in minerals celestine and strontianite
naturaly.
compared to pu238 which was $300.00 per gram in 2000
and now in 08 it cost $2000 + per gram
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 09:04 PM
Neverfly Neverfly is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,593
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ace holmes View Post
in 1990 it cost $5.00 an oz.
in 2004 it cost $20.00 a gram
a byproduct of nuclear fall out and fission also found in minerals celestine and strontianite
naturaly.
That's quite a price change.

If we were to rely more on nuclear power plants- you are saying strontium would be a by product? How much would actually be produced?
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 09:08 PM
ace holmes ace holmes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 81
Default

16 kg/1000 mwey in 2000
nuclear fission waste only
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 09:10 PM
Neverfly Neverfly is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,593
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ace holmes View Post
16 kg/1000 mwey in 2000
Ok.. What I meant to ask is how to produce enough to supply your idea.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 09:25 PM
ace holmes ace holmes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 81
Default

thats usa supply only fission
china in 05 produced 700,000 tonnes
thats 700,000,000 kilo mined in china
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 09:30 PM
Neverfly Neverfly is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,593
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ace holmes View Post
thats usa supply only fission
china in 05 produced 700,000 tonnes
thats 700,000,000 kilo mined in china
Yeah well, the USA needs to get crackin' on nuclear

A quicky wiki look at Strontium:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strontium-90
Quote:
the gamma photon emission from the decay of 90Y is so weak that it can normally be ignored.90Sr finds extensive use in medicine and industry, as a radioactive source for thickness gauges and for superficial radiotherapy of some cancers. Controlled amounts of 90Sr and 89Sr can be used in treatment of bone cancer. As the radioactive decay of strontium-90 generates significant amount of heat, and is cheaper than the alternative 238Pu, it is used as a heat source in many Russian/Soviet radioisotope thermoelectric generators, usually in the form of strontium fluoride. It is also used as a radioactive tracer in medicine and agriculture. It is obtained during nuclear reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel.
Also it says:
Quote:
Strontium has biochemical behavior similar to calcium. After entering the organism, most often by ingestion with contaminated food or water, about 70-80% of the dose gets excreted. Virtually all remaining strontium is deposited in bones and bone marrow, with the remaining 1% remaining in blood and soft tissues. Its presence in bones can cause bone cancer, cancer of nearby tissues, and leukemia. Exposition to 90Sr can be tested by a bioassay, most commonly by urinalysis.
Great.
Diet soda, red M&M's, bacon and nuclear cars cause cancer. Watch the special tonight on FOX News!

Last edited by Neverfly : 04-April-2008 at 09:36 PM. Reason: Corrected spelling of Cancer.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 09:34 PM
ace holmes ace holmes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 81
Default

what?
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 09:36 PM
Neverfly Neverfly is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,593
Default

Bacon is off the menu
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 10:30 PM
ace holmes ace holmes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 81
Default

what? who cares what idiots think 2 in of lead sheild all beta radiation produced by strontium 90

Last edited by ace holmes : 04-April-2008 at 11:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2008, 10:39 PM
alainprice alainprice is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 525
Default

I was gonna ask about strontium and calcium.

As we try to get rid of the lead in paint, and mercury in fillings, we start using strontium in our cars? I just can't see this happening.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 05-April-2008, 01:29 AM
ace holmes ace holmes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 81
Default

alainprice
A compressor fills one of three 9 liter tanks to a pressure of 5000
the helium is then boiled to 8000 psi
and the tanks are carbon fiber so if your in an accident the tank splints open not explode the only danger in this is that it will produce a high speed draft
and no two year old is going to eat something thats so hot its glowing
not as dangerous if inhailed unlike lead and mercury
and it cant bleed through your skin its solid at room temp

Last edited by ace holmes : 05-April-2008 at 09:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 05-April-2008, 01:34 AM
ace holmes ace holmes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 81
Default

plus beta emmision can be blocked by aluminum foil
diamond is a little denser
cost isnt that big of a deal you only need three pellets and three cases
to do this
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 05-April-2008, 01:39 AM
ace holmes ace holmes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 81
Default

this is only preliminary thread ill make one on april 20th with design ,specs , and detailed cost
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 05-April-2008, 02:06 AM
Neverfly Neverfly is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,593
Default

Neilzero posted below me mentioning an alternative use for such a vehicle.
Of course, My Mind goes, "ROVER!"

Simply put, We can complain pretty harshly about petroleum products. We are just so used to using them.

But they are going to run out someday.

We use petroleum to make all manner of plastics too. I wonder what the stock for Dow Corning will do then?

Last edited by Neverfly : 05-April-2008 at 04:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 05-April-2008, 04:19 AM
neilzero neilzero is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 995
Default

If I recall correctly 90 pounds of Pu238 are needed to produce 10 kilowatts in a RTG = radioactive thermonic generator. Strontium 90 would likely be used if it produced more power. A steam turbine powered by the same heat might apply 50 kw to the wheels of a typical SUV, which may be enough to give acceptable performance. I can't imagine 90 pounds of either metal in a car, especially at the prices suggested in this thread. Likely much of the cost is refining from high level nuclear waste. Perhaps the high level nuclear waste can power the car, without the cost of processing the waste. The main problem would be neutrons and gamma radiation which would be difficult to shield properly. This system may have application for unmanned vehicles which don't need shielding. Vehicle repairs would have to be done by waldo or robot. Neil
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)