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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 13-June-2008, 09:40 AM
Ivan Viehoff Ivan Viehoff is offline
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Originally Posted by gokuson123 View Post
...this religious stuff is going to a new level and actually interfering with our family...
If your problem is that your mother is trying to impose her beliefs on others, then trying to impose your beliefs on her does not seem likely to a successful or constructive way of resolving the issue.

Rather than preaching to her, perhaps it would probably be more productive simply to discuss the difficulties you are having, and learn to live with each other. This can work. My wife's brother and his wife are Jehovah's Witnesses, in fact he is a minister or whatever the JW version of that is. The rest of my wife's family comprise a few quietly practising Catholics, and the majority firmly non-religious. Since the necessity of active evangelism is a core belief of JWs, you might think that was a recipe for family conflict. But it has been put to him that if he wants any kind of polite relationship with his relatives, he has to keep his mouth shut about religion when in their company. He has the good sense and common humanity to observe this.

There's not much you can "do about" people "seeing the light". They're most unlikely to change their mind because of arguments you put to them. I used to study with this guy. He had a presitigious research fellowship in economics at Oxford University, and was on his way to a glittering academic career. His change of direction was deeply regretted by his eminent colleagues, one of whom now has the Nobel Prize, but they plainly didn't prevent it.
http://www.stpauls.co.uk/page.aspx?p...lang=001lngdef

And this guy was once a close friend of mine. He was a noted hedonist at Oxford, and was pursuing a career as a socialist politician when we lost contact. He was once pictured scantily clad in compromising posture (with his own consent) in a top-selling Sunday scandal-sheet. When I tracked him down more than a decade later, I discovered he was doing something very different. When we did meet up, but I regret to say I couldn't cope with it and was very rude to him. Not mature, helpful or sensible of me, and I feel very embarrassed about it.
http://www.stpauls.co.uk/page.aspx?p...lang=001lngdef
(It isn't very obvious from the link, but he is a Catholic priest.)
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 13-June-2008, 08:29 PM
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Ken G Ken G is offline
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Wouldn't that be evolution though? If I understand what you are talking about, could a possible example be that a 2 year old human has much more innate knowledge that one would have in the medieval ages? Would that be from the environment of those 2 years the child had, or does it really have that information from birth?
You are talking about a form of evolution popularized by Lamarck, whereby the experiences of one organism could be passed to its offspring. An early giraffe that worked hard at stretching its neck might then pass a stretched neck to its offspring. That thinking pretty much went out with genetics, and the fact that it has never been exhibited in any experiment that I know of. Since all demonstrated connections to previous generations are genetic (along with the obvious direct influences by still-living parents and family), there's no scientific evidence of reincarnation, so such a view should probably not be suggested as an approach to understanding evolution. Bringing that idea up with your mom would just be substituting one non-scientific world view for another.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 14-June-2008, 05:15 AM
ace holmes ace holmes is offline
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dude theistic evolution is the worst thing u can do to religion or sciene
and honestly who cares how it started what good come from knowing we came from dirt or monkeys
if you believe in the same principles should it matter
hell here a suggestion science and religion shoulnt be in the same conversation keep religion out and mommy wont sound kooky
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 14-June-2008, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Ivan Viehoff View Post
If your problem is that your mother is trying to impose her beliefs on others, then trying to impose your beliefs on her does not seem likely to a successful or constructive way of resolving the issue.
Yes, she is unlikely going to appreciate and understand any barrage of scientific claims. Religion can only be impacted so much in one area and, if hurt, can move over to regions that aren't so impacted; these are regions of subjective beliefs without objective influence. These are also the tenets of the faith itself.

You can, however, learn why science says what it says. Apparently, you seem anxious to do this. It is always best to be the helpful guide along the path, however, than make any attempt to push them in the right direction. Feeding others is appreciated, especially if the bites are small and sweet; honey not vinegar.

Here's a few sweets, hopefully:
You can be a creationist and still be in agreement with mainstream science. Here, creationist gets the positive spin, but with a better definition: believing in a Creator and having a literal view of the Bible [that is concordant with mainstream science]. I know a Southern Baptist deacon who sings in their choir and sees a literal interpretation that is concordant with evolution and the other sciences. He sees the critical six days as being six different days experienced by Moses who was taken back to those historical moments, not unlike the experience John has in the last Biblical book.

The point here isn't a religious discussion on the issues but the fact a soft approach that opens the door to later discussions will allow some growth, but, as Ken said, she may just want to believe what she wants to believe. This friend of mine and I have lunch with some staunch YEC friends and when the topic arises, though rarely, we try to show interest in listening to each other respectfully. That's easy since we know they are very dedicated to helping others, probably due to their strong faith.

This is not unlike the days of Galileo, where the weight of science opened the eyes of the Church and the erroneous religious dogma so tightly bound to Aristotle was revised by taking science into context with the exegesis. Of course, if she is a Geocentrist, your work will be a little tougher. If so, we could talk about the allegorical "four corners"; surely she's not a Flatearther.

[Added: I forgot some other :sweets". 1) Darwin and Wallace both based their theory heavily upon Reverened Thomas Malthus. Darwin was planning to be a country parson until he returned from his famous voyage. He never became an atheist and his wife, Emma, by the few accounts I've seen, was always true to her faith.

2) Big Bang Theory was introduced by Georges Lemaitre, a Belgian priest, though his PhD in physics was probably handy at the time. ]
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 14-June-2008, 01:47 PM
Disinfo Agent Disinfo Agent is offline
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[Added: I forgot some other :sweets". 1) Darwin and Wallace both based their theory heavily upon Reverened Thomas Malthus. Darwin was planning to be a country parson until he returned from his famous voyage. He never became an atheist and his wife, Emma, by the few accounts I've seen, was always true to her faith.
How do you know Darwin never became an atheist?
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 14-June-2008, 02:53 PM
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The closest situation I've been in to this would be my best friend who turned out to be a global warming denier. Once I got over the shock and horror, we just made an unspoken agreement never to discuss it, but instead to focus on the things we had in common. I don't know if this would work with your mother, though, especially if you live under the same roof.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 14-June-2008, 06:33 PM
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How do you know Darwin never became an atheist?
From what little I've read and heard.

You might like this site. Here is a quote from one of his letters of 1879 (pg. 304). [He was 70 years old at the time.]
"What my own views may be is a question of no consequence to any one but myself. But, as you ask, I may state that my judgment often fluctuates. … In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an Atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. I think that generally (and more and more as I grow older), but not always, that an Agnostic would be the more correct description of my state of mind."
"Agnostic", as you probably know, is a term coined by his bulldog Huxley, whom he admired greatly.

To my knowledge, this continued until his death three years later, though I'm no expert on his life.
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Lighten up! This is a stellar board! Author: duh.

"The Sun, with all the planets revolving around it, and depending on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as though it had nothing else in the universe to do..." Author: Galileo supposedly.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 14-June-2008, 07:15 PM
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John Jones John Jones is offline
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We were talking the other day and she decided to let me know she is what she calls a "creationist" when I stated that all of them need to burn in a fire. I am a Christian but I do not believe in that whole area, I believe God caused events to create life...I try to find middle ground. But it seems she doesn't believe in evolution and everything.

Needless to say, this has made me very angry, and I need some concrete things I can say to PROVE it to her, assuming she turns her brain on. I read Phil's blog on the E. Coli evolution which was a good one, any more out there?



Telling your mom that creationists like her need to burn in fire?

My take on this is that you may be a little too impudent to be trying to prove anything to her.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 14-June-2008, 07:27 PM
Disinfo Agent Disinfo Agent is offline
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"Agnostic", as you probably know, is a term coined by his bulldog Huxley, whom he admired greatly.
I did not know, as a matter of fact. Thank you very much for the history lesson.
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