We were talking the other day and she decided to let me know she is what she calls a "creationist" when I stated that all of them need to burn in a fire. I am a Christian but I do not believe in that whole area, I believe God caused events to create life...I try to find middle ground. But it seems she doesn't believe in evolution and everything.

Needless to say, this has made me very angry, and I need some concrete things I can say to PROVE it to her, assuming she turns her brain on. I read Phil's blog on the E. Coli evolution which was a good one, any more out there?

Sounds like what you want is the excellent http://www.talkorigins.org.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

I would mention that there is an important step you need to take before you even address the issue of evidence and reason, and that is, what is the intention behind her belief. It is quite likely, it seems to me, that the reason she believes in creationism has nothing at all to do with evidence, or reason, or scientific truth-- I'll bet she believes in it because she wants to, like most creationists. It is the story of the world she wants to live in, and that may matter more to her than all the scientific proof in the world. And guess what-- it's a free country, and people are allowed to believe in things they want to believe in when they don't directly affect the health and well-being of anyone else. You'll have to trust her to know what those situations are, but she probably also knows when it is actually important to have evidence and logic on your side. So if you want to bring the question under the control of evidence and reason, I suggest you'll have to first get her to agree to those ground rules. Once you've done that, you've already won, but it's an important step not to skip or you'll just be spinning your wheels.

I would also like to suggest you dig a little into the other big impediment you will face, which is that anger you mentioned. Where does your anger come from? Will it help you convince her of anything? You had better master it or it will ruin both your chances of success, and your entire experience of trying to succeed, at convincing her.

gokuson123,

I don't know exactly what my parents believe. I do know that their
beliefs are not the same, but they appear to have absolutely no problem
with that. I don't think they ever have, in the 57 years they've been
together.

My mother is Christian, and has expressed skepticism about evolution.
I have made some very minimal attempts to show her that evolution
fits what is observed, but it is such a complex and subtle subject that
I did not really have much hope of succeeding. I would not be able to
explain why I am convinced that evolution is a satisfactory theory.

To me, there is no obvious conflict between the Big Bang hypothesis
and the notion that God created the Universe. I don't think that God
was involved, but I don't need to mention that when discussing the
topic with a creationist. If a creationist were to ask me directly, I
guess I'd have to answer honestly that I think that God was not
involved in the creation, but so far I haven't been asked that.

In general, I am completely comfortable with my mother's beliefs.
Right or wrong, they aren't hurting anyone, including her. And I
know that she wants more than anything to not hurt anyone.

Saying that creationists need to burn is cruel and insensitive. You
may detest their irrational, even hateful way of thinking, but they
are only human, and came to their way of thought for reasons that
are probably beyond their comprehension.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

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"The other planets?
Well, they just happen to be there, but the point of rockets is to explore them!"
-- Kai Yeves

The key question is, what does she mean by saying she is a creationist. In my experience it often turns out that what they mean is that yes, they accept evolution, yes they accept old earth, yes they accept big bang, at least in a general sense. But, there are often questions like "how did the FIRST life start", "what was before BB", "there has to be a meaning to it all", "it is all too perfect to have happened by itself" that are important to believers in their belief in a creator. It does not necessarily mean they think that the creator snapped his fingers and poofed all species into existance.

In short, the term 'creationist' is often applied differently by those that are not familiar with the evolution/creation/id discussions.

Also, it's something many people are not even interested in. With them, it will be almost impossible to get them to make the effort of learning more about evolution, and which misconceptions they have about it. You can tell them what science knows and thinks about it, and they'll easily dismiss it as 'unproven'. Can lead a horse to water, and all that.

But maybe that's a starting point, try to find out what she thinks evolution is. What makes her doubt it. Just throwing talkorigins.org doesn't help, it will be glanced over and dismissed as 'biased'. (It is of course a great reference for you as a starting point to combat misconceptions).

Don't get me started on my mom's whacky new age 'thinking'

__________________
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin

"Ignorance convinces" -- slang's dad

...and Inquisitorial.

Hopefully he'll begin to detest his own irrational and hateful way of thinking first.

Well said, Jeff. Hopefully he'll take your words to heart.

Might be easier to just get a new mom.

Seriously though, from your post, you classifiy yourself as a Christian, but one who doesn't believe in her version, this dilemma highlights how personal the religious experience truly is.

Seems that people weigh in on this issue where they want to - literally picking and choosing those parts of that story they want to be true. When they come up against a Christian aspect that they like, they say that they "believe it" - when it is something they do not like, they choose not to believe it.

Might I suggest to cut your Mom some slack? She just "believes" different aspects than you do. Once you get into the religious debates, it always comes down to having faith in one's own opinion.


Tim

I am concerned about this thread crossing the line very quickly. Religious discussion is not allowed. There are many beliefs within Christiandom, including many variants of creationism. I would be very careful about wholesale labelling.

Did you mean you were saying that all creationists need to burn in a fire? You shouldn't say such things. No wonder your mother got upset.

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"All your bias are belong to us." Ara Pacis
"A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

My mother is a creationist as well. She is the piano player at one of the largest Southern Baptist churches in town. My advice to anyone who wants to try to get thru to a Christian Creationist, is to let them come to you. Don't try to push science on them, as this will almost always fail. Faith is what governs them, not logic or evidence.

If a creationist comes to you and questions you on why you believe in Evolution, then you have a real oppurtunity to educate about how you used facts and evidence in your decision to believe in Evolution. Go slow, perhaps suggest some futher reading, but don't try to get them to stop believing in creationism right away.

In my youth, I used to be a creationist. I was very involved with my Baptist church(same one my mother still goes to), and getting out of that way of life is not easy. I won't go into detail about the events that led to my seperation from the church, but I will say that my love of science and Astronomy in particular, played a major role. It was very tough, especially in my relations with my mother.

Nowdays, I get along well with my mother. We don't get into any religious discussions. Those fights are now long dead between us. She does sometimes mention that she still puts my name in the prayer bowl at her church!

Of course this is a science and reasonist blog - and these viewpoints are generally supported by applying the scientific method.

Perhaps my pervious post should have included a suggestion to address the original poster's issue by applying this all-important principle of science, - but I felt that supplying that answer would have merely brought the discussion back into the old science vs religion debate.

Perhaps a "better" first step, is to 1.) show the poster how subjective each persons perception is regarding the religion question, and then 2.) hopefully then moving on to why the scientific/evidence based view is still our best method for determining what is and what is not true.

Isn't that what BA is all about?


Tim

Beliefs are not amenable to rational disproof. And perhaps she's happy and doesn't want to be "cured". Also, even as a non-creationist Christian, you probably believe in some things which rather unscientific, so there is a pot and kettle situation. Does her belief cause you any problems? Does she try to impose it on your or anyone else?

Uhh....

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Disclaimer: I have no theories, I am not smart enough to come up with theories. I only have a hypothesis. So anything I may write, statement or otherwise is just a hypothesis based on what I observe...

The difference between a correlation and a causation... Everyone who drinks water dies... Water makes things wet...

My mom is a creationist as well--I respect her belief, she respects my belief in evolution--not everybody is a scientist, and the world can't function well if everybody has exactly the same skill set. She's told me why she has her belief--she could handle evolution up to that point of an animal giving birth to a human. I have to admit sympathy for that one--or I'd be a monkey's uncle! I say, let it go--the first amendment could be interpreted as "freedom of belief" after all. And believing that creationists should all be burned in a fire is a more harmful, and I think far worse, belief than creationism!

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Todd (Bowie, MD, US, North America, Earth, Sol System, Vega region, Local Bubble, Orion arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Virgo A Cluster, Virgo supercluster, the universe in which spock is clean shaven)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

personal page: http://blog.astrosketches.info

Not true. There's a difference between believing things that there's no evidence for or against and not believing things that there is evidence for.

actually Ivan has a valid point, how can you claim to be a Christian but not believe in anything that has no scientific basis?

__________________
Disclaimer: I have no theories, I am not smart enough to come up with theories. I only have a hypothesis. So anything I may write, statement or otherwise is just a hypothesis based on what I observe...

The difference between a correlation and a causation... Everyone who drinks water dies... Water makes things wet...

But humans are animals. Apes, even. Further, it's not as though one day, a chimp had a human baby; that would throw evolution out the window.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Hmm I probably should have added this....it was only recently, as in these past few years, she started believing this. She has been hanging around people whom we thought are very nice people, but lately...everyone around here seems to be going into blind faith. It's devolved into something I haven't seen her or those people do, and approaching the "crazy" point. That is why I had a strong view against it, these are the "look that's Jesus in the mud!" people. They used to be very logical people who I would have scientific discussions about, which I now do with my father only, and this religious stuff is going to a new level and actually interfering with our family.

A.k.a. religion stole my mother, who used to be extremely good with science and math. When you get told fossils and carbon dating were just setup on purpose to test faith...yea, I might have a harsh view on that. Sorry if it came out so strongly, that wasn't my intention (i should proofread more) but I don't like seeing her close herself up from everything now because she gets "bad spiritual vibes", it's causing issues and I wanted to prove to her that it's not as she thinks it is. Like I said earlier I believe in a middle ground, even if that may only be so I don't have inner conflict between my beliefs and science, but she used to be really into science. I'm hoping some evolution information will maybe re-awaken that.

Edit: Yes, I know I have a tendency where I need to bite my tongue. I'm working on it >.<

Correct, but I stand by what I said for the reason sabianq gives. Dawkins discusses this in his book, and calls the former the "deist" notion of religion, as opposed to "theist" where you believe something where there could be experimental evidence against. The worst you can say of deist religious belief is that, scientifically, it is unnecessary, because it makes no prediction (in the Popperian sense, it is a vacuous theory if it is untestable). Dawkins sensibly only takes issue with theist notions. Dawkins suggests that very few people are true deists.

I apologize to everyone if this became "too religious". I was just trying to get together evidence, but I needed to give some information, but I guess a little can be too much. :S I explained my reasoning in an above post, and I believe when it causes an unbalance in family life and deterring myself from certain things, that is is a valid issue which should be addressed (I have spent a long time learning to let people believe what they want, trust me). I know one person gave me a site (Which i have not checked out yet), so anything else would be appreciated. I watched some stuff on Discovery which was really interesting, I'm hoping they show more specials on the subject of evolution, mainly the Dinosaurs. That one where they activated old genes in bird DNA was awesome!