If I were in somewhat less of a good mood, I could ban several people just from the last two pages of this thread.

Specifically, scourge and hewhocaves, calm down. You are both attacking each other, and I will not have that on this board. Discuss things calmly, or discuss them somewhere else. Got it?

There are other examples with other people too, so I strongly urge people to review what they have said here and then read the FAQ of this board.

To everyone posting: this thread may be beyond redemption already, but here are some very good points being made, so I want it to remain open. Behave yourselves.

Sheesh.

__________________
Phil Plait
The Bad Astronomer
http://www.badastronomy.com
badastro@badastronomy.com

Totally agree. 50 years of "bad" evidence is just the same as 50 years of NO evidence.

On a side note...If we were being "prepared" for contact (or conquest), the question arises...

How "prepared" do we have to BE before they arrive??

Usually, I just lurk here...I enjoy the discussions a LOT, but usually don't have much to add....but I wanted to weigh in on this one. In 1973, I saw a UFO. In the daytime, and I was not under the influence of anything chemical or biological. It was there, it was very weird, and I have never, ever been able to come up with a plausible explanation for it. Now, that said, I tend---and this is very hypocritical, I suppose---to dismiss out of hand anyone else's experience, however similar, simply because there is no way to use the scientific method to examine the data.

So what am I left with? I rarely talk about it, because there is nothing I can supply to convince anyone it really happened. And they are quite right to dismiss it. But, on the other hand, it certainly did happen. So, is it possible that a lot of the reports are similar to mine? How can I, or anyone else ever know? If intelligence is directing these events, how can we possibly use scientific method to examine data that is being deliberately withheld by that, presumably, more advanced intelligence?

Dismissing all the goofy, tin hat stuff, we are still left with some unexplained phenomena. My guess is, these are NOT interstellar craft....how would they get across such unthinkable distances? But what ARE they? I'd really love to know and, sadly, most of us are not permitted to even ask the question in any serious way. I'm not sure it CAN be examined in any serious way.

Just my 2 cents.

It's the sad truth. The thing is, no matter what we want to know, if we're not doing it ourselves, it's up to someone else to decide what to tell us. Even if we ask, they can always lie and/or withhold evidence.

Now when is a invetigation worth it? When half of the people who read the information accept it? Therein lies the problem, who should we convince, and for what reasons? Just because someone wants to know but doesn't want to pay for it, should it be publically investigated?

I would suggest that anyone who wants UFO investigations, starts a say website, and ask people to join up and pay a yearly fee/donation that goes into UFO research. The problem? who to trust. How would you know someone was honest and was going to spend the money on investigations.

So how could it be done? We'd need a public well known and trusted company to do the investigating. Question is, would people be happy with the results, and believe them?

Someone still needs to start the ball rolling. If enough UFO believers/abductees/eyewitnesses got together and threw their money at "scientists", I'm sure they'd get their investigation.

It's a nice idea...but as you point out, who would accept the results (positive or negative)? I do like the idea, though.

I have no idea what's going on...although I don't really believe there are interstellar craft in our skies. But I find it equally hard to believe that ALL the millions of sightings---every single one of them, no exceptions---are the reports of the misinformed and/or delusional. That seems to be equally unlikely as any overly anal fixated Martians.

I think he's thinking of tricorder scans. I'll get Lieutenant Tucker right on it.

Scourge has a very good point. There's really very little we can do with a social and political climate like this. If only we had a climate conducive to scientific exploration, like.. like in the Renaissance. Gallileo had it so easy.

Seriously, any organization that is serious about finding out "the truth" as it were, has to do a LOT more than just check out old photos. It has to become experts in the fields of photography, weather, physics, astronomy, aircraft identifiacation and probably a handful of other fields. They also have to be saavy enough to be able to distinguish hoax from truth, to be able to conduct an unbiased investigation and recognize the limitations of the data. In short, they have to know that their job will be a long, frustrating, probably completley unfufilling (from the 'finding space aliens' point of view) career. Is it any wonder why it's difficult to get PhDs to jump at this chance?

BTW, I would also suggest that this organization also needs to be proactive. It needs to go out there and "create hoaxes" so that it can sudy them. It needs to try to create scenarios where observed phenomenon can be mistaken for UFOs.

Of course all this will cost money. And probably lots of it. Funny, UFOs are a multimillion dollar industry in this country alone. The UFO people are not a cottage industry, much as they'd like you to believe. Go compare the relative sizes of the New Age section in any book store and the Science section and you'll see. Quite frankly, IMHO, the UFOers have no excuse whatsoever. They have numbers, they have money, they have free time. If they choose to spend the money and effort lining their own pockets, thats their own business. But it's going to be difficult for the rest of us to have any sympathy for them when they continue to milk themselves and others for all they are worth and yet have the audacity to demand that the PhDs of the world drop their own research to check out some blob on a phoograph for FREE.

But of course, it's impossible to explain that to any of them.

John

I have to agree. I'm sure misinformed/delusional people make up for some of those claims. Misinformed could be a wide range of things though, everything from hoaxes and airplanes to ball lightning. I'm sure a lot of things people see are real, and not hallucinations, but they could be so many different things, and not flying saucers from outer space.

Ok so lets weed out the hoaxes (faked footage/pictures) and the hallucinations. We're left with the real stuff, that people really did see. Could be anything from kites with lights, radio controlled "flying saucers" (have one on my desk as we speak), to aircraft.

On to the "unexplainable" things. Close up flying objects that we have no knowledge about, and far off moving objects that zigzag in straight lines at high speeds.

I'm not going to speculate until I see one myself, or see convinving evidence. Until then I don't mind calling people liars. If you (not you personally Daffy) know you can't back up their evidence, don't bring it up unless you're ready to be assumed lying/hallucinating/mistaken.

It's like with any other thing that's not accepted common knowledge. If you can't have someone else replicate the results, people won't necessarily believe you.

As for your experience Daffy, I'd love to know too

Unfortunately something you observed over thirty years ago will likely remain a mystery. And, I doubt that "investigations" of any more contemporary "sightings" reports will ever offer satisfactory explanations. I've never seen a "UFO." But I have seen objects in the sky that could have easily been misconstrued as UFOs.

The only serious examination of this phenomena, "The Condon Report," essentially came up empty handed. But even Peter Sturrock's pro UFO "Physical Evidence Related to UFO Reports" (JSE, 1998) admits that "there was no convincing evidence pointing to unknown physical processes or to the involvement of extraterrestrial intelligence."

I think if people believe we are being visited by extraterrestrials, they ought to work on producing more compelling evidence than they have been able to do to date. This means setting standards for analysis and evidence that presently do not exist among "UFOlogists." However, there's probably a good reason these standards don't exist - because proponents know that standards require a level of rigor they are unwilling and unable to achieve. Its too convenient to explain away the lack of evidence upon the incrutable motives of our alien friends or on the government, who for some inexplicable reason, wouldn't want us to know about them. And so long as one can still command a gullible audience, why bother working harder at it?

Regards,
Algorithms

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Anything may be possible, but not everything actually is. Some things are true and some things are not. Wisdom is knowing the difference.

Well, you see my dilemma...I have no corroborating evidence (and it's a perfectly reasonable request to ask for some). And I have no desire to be called a liar.

I saw something in broad daylight (I saw no lights on it) that was quite large (unless lower down and smaller which, I concede, is a possibility). I watched it for about 30 seconds. Then it suddenly accelerated from nearly motionless (about like a blimp which is what I, at first glance, thought it was), to a speed that took it completely over the far horizon within 2 seconds; and I was at the top of a mountain range with an unobstructed view for what I estimate to be at least 20-30 miles.

I have no idea what it was (if I did it would be an IFO). I am reasonably certain it was not a hallucination; if it was, it was the only one I have ever experienced in my life. It certainly was not ball lightning, or swamp gas reflecting Venus or some such, since, as I say, it was an opaque object with no lights. And, I am not lying.

So there you are. What can I, or anyone else do with this anecdotal report? Exactly nothing. Does that mean it didn't happen? Not as far as I am concerned.

It seems very likely, to me, that all the sightings are mundane in origin; I have seen several UFO-like objects myself, and I wonder how many other people saw those same objects and still think they have seen aliens.

A weather balloon; a brilliant bolide, a close conjunction between Mars and Jupiter, a number of beautiful and otherworldy parhelia, an AWACS head-on; some of these were seen by people I know who really thought they were extraordinary phenomena, and If I had not explained them those people may well have come away with the impression that they had seen extraterrestrial craft.

The conjunction between Mars and Jupiter sounds unconvincing, but actually was very spooky; I had a phone call in the middle of the night, reporting a cigar shaped object- when I went outside I could see it too.
Mars and Jupiter were so close that the mind's eye was fooled into filling the gap between them with a half glimpsed optical illusion, a cigar shape (or so it seemed).
This illusion was not visible on the previous night nor the next night as the two planets moved together then apart.

The common observation of point-like objects in the sky moving in an erratic or 'falling-leaf-like' pattern can be explained by a well known biological phenomenon;

and try to video that same star or planet on a hand-held camera and you will record even more erratic movements.


And the study of parhelia is a fascinating pastime; this website is one of the best on the net;
http://www.sundog.clara.co.uk/atoptics/phenom.htm
it details the incredible range penomena that can be seen in the sky and atmosphere in exquisite detail;
these are just the frequent parhelia-
http://www.sundog.clara.co.uk/halo/common.htm
there are many other sundogs that are more rare and elusive, and ready to lead the observer astray.
http://www.sundog.clara.co.uk/halo/unusual.htm

Keep watching the skies; but there are strange and misleading things up there.

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Ditto, Daffy. There were 16 of us who saw the object I saw and one of them was a police officer. One heck of a mass delusion there, huh? Basically, I'm through with trying to figure it out. I'm not even sure if this sort of thing ever will (or for that matter, can) be "figured out". Chalk it up as just "one of those things".

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An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get all sorts of weird bugs!

Sturrock's analysis of the Condon report:

The report: Sturrock on Condon

The Sturrock Report:

Sturrock Report

Exactly. But as I said, the problem is it's not really common knowledge, it's not accepted, so as far as people are concerned, it didn't really happen.

The whole UFO phenomenon has been blown out of proportion though, people are seeing them everywhere.

Would've loved to see it myself, I really would. My problem with UFOs is that people who want to see them never do, or don't tell about them, probably because like you they don't want to be ridiculed, they're smart enough to know the consequences of actually telling about their experience. People who do tell about them often have weird backgrounds and/or reasons for telling about them. I know, discredits the phenomenon itself.

Well, my problem is that I'm skeptical and pessimistic. Moreso than I should be. I don't take things at face value, even from close friends, I don't mind debating them, and do so frequently. I'd just want to see these things for myself.

I've never seen ball lightning, the light of venus reflecting off swamp gas, or any other phenomenon I didn't know what it was. I've seen Venus though, didn't know what it was at first, got my binocs out, didn't make any more sense, and then I checked a starchart. Yep, venus.

Yeah, there's nothing we can do about it.

So, only a personal observation can convince you.
What do you make about Ufo observed on radar screen and by eyewitness at the same time

How can you be sure than contact was never made betwen military and those ET visitors but was keep secret for security reasons?

There's not really any way to prove thinking such as this. It's frequently used by those who choose to believe in the ET hypothesis. However, since this is a science based site everyone here will tell you, "It's not what you believe but rather, what you can prove".

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An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get all sorts of weird bugs!