8-[ Wha - did Phil just almost say "cover up?"

I never listen to Noory, but now I gotta find an AM radio by 10 pm... must be one in the earthquake kit...though I think it's a hand crank model.

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Lyford Rome
"Zis is not nuts, zis is super-nuts!"
Mathematician Richard Courant on viewing an Orion test

No, no cover-up. Hee hee. But I've decided to post the story here first; BABBers deserve that much, at least!

Basically, the story is, now get this, a fabrication. Yes, you read that correctly.

The two researchers, Carol Stoker and Larry Lemke, do think they may have evidence for methane in Mars' atmosphere. Methane cannot last long without being replenished, and it's not easy to replenish it. There are non-biological ways (for example, sunlight + C02 plus water, which can be found on Mars), but life is the easiest way we know of. As the story went, they had a secret meeting -- with whom, we don't know -- and they were discussing releasing this bombshell to either coincide or predate an article submitted to Nature, a premier scientific journal.

But -- and this is the important bit -- there was never any meeting! Nor is there a Nature paper.

I have a friend, Penny Boston, who studies cave geomicrobiology, just the kind of life this story is talking about. She is good friends with Carol Stoker. I happened to email Penny yesterday to tease her a little about Hoagland's silly claims on C2C last night (he happened to mention her name), and she emailed me back today. She told me that Dr. Stoker had emailed her about all this. Dr. Stoker has issued a statement, which I will quote here:

So there you go. There is clearly more going to happen here. Will NASA issue a press release about all this? What will space.com do? I do not yet have all the facts. Dr. Stoker is clearly upset with space.com, but I will reserve judgement until I find out more.

What a mess. We'll see how this unfolds.

Thanks for the news, Phil. If only space.com spent as much time on verification as it did on its ads.....I can't even go there any more - too many pictures popping up in my face. Going there for news is like someone showing up for a star party with the highbeams on - my eyes - argh!!!!!

Our local station streams live online so I will be representing "The 805" in the audience during your show tonight - Good luck! (Not that you will need it.) :wink:

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Lyford Rome
"Zis is not nuts, zis is super-nuts!"
Mathematician Richard Courant on viewing an Orion test

Wow! What a scoop!

By the way, the space.com story was picked up by a few other Internet news sites---such well-respected, reliable sources as the Times of India, the People's Daily, the Boston Herald, and MSNBC.

This is beginning to sound like a train-wreck...wish it wouldn't have happened, don't like it happening .. but gotta look anyway. It sounds like it could get interesting on one front, but lowers expectations on another. A shame, I'm rooting for those little methane-producing buggers! :wink:

Appreciate the "scoop" BA!

I won't castigate anyone yet without evidence. The Space.com quotes "sources" -- note the plural. They may have heard from two people at this party, who both bamboozled the reporter. We just don't know, and I don't care to speculate seriously until I know more.

Yep. NASA clearly got to them. They'll never talk now.

Just trying to think a la Hoagland.

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Space.com really got that one wrong eh? Using party gossip is no good seen from the perspective of journalistic standards. [-(
On the other hand Im not quite sure as to the origins of this statement...Is it a statement directly from Stoker to the world or is it leaked by penny Boston (i.e. secondhand info):


Being the devils advocate it seems to me that I am sitting with info from a friend of a friend of a friend, which I cannot veryfy any other place....when will this statement be made public?
I think my point is that one ought to counter poor journalism by making clear cases - not leaking statements, if that is what this is. This is the stuff of conspiracies 8-[

Respectfully
Trob

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second technician Rimmer, Arnold J., experienced what can only be described as a voyage to trip-out city

So scientists have found tough-organisms, extremophiles, hyperthermophiles, and very strong microbes
Then on another planet, we have formation of methane on the Red Planet.
Normally when you add 2 + 2 together you get 4
It seems the jarosite-rich rock found by NASA dates some billions of years
But the press seem to have run with this one and came up with 2 + 2 = 22 ..equals..Martians on Mars :^o ?

I'm curious to see just how space.com gracefully wipes the egg off their face.

Do you have reason to believe they are even going to try? :wink:

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At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

I think they will, and rather quickly, too. After all, they do want to be a perceived as a credible source of information.

I listened to the BA 8) last night, good explanation of what is really going on =D> I still don't think it is going to stop RCH from running off the end of the Earth with it, that IS what he does for a living. Everyone still has to keep in mind that the rovers were not designed to look for signs of life. In fact, nothing has been sent to look specifically for life, except for Beagle, which never got the chance to bark. The conspiricy nuts insist that Beagle is alive and well and has been "taken underground" to keep the truth hidden, but I don't buy any of it. Give it time, there are further experiments planned in the future that will answer the question of life or not, and whether there is truly water/ice just below the surface that a manned mission would be able to access and use for their survival and ultimate return to Earth. RCH claims it's there waiting for us, but I would need to be lead pipe certain before attempting risking the lives of the "away team". {end of rambling RCH rant/}

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Those who repeat History are doomed to learn it.

NASA has issued a press statement.

So when the one's who cried "eureka!" finish wiping their faces off, anyone want an omlette?

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The last time I felt a warm fuzzy feeling, I was informed by my doctor that it was just gas.

...and now that NASA has released a statement, I see no reason why space.com wouldn't revise their original report.

I am embarrassed that I characterized Stoker and Lemke in this manner...seems like this "mistake" wasn't their fault at all. ops:

Echoed.

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The last time I felt a warm fuzzy feeling, I was informed by my doctor that it was just gas.

And I withdraw my cold fusion analogy (though I still reserve the right to a cold one...) Ironic Smackdown Dept: Rushing to judgment to criticize those perceived as rushing to publish. #-o [-X

Though I guess expecting space news from Space.com is like expecting science from Popular Science or history from the History Channel...

Never listened to Coast2Coast before, and while I think that Phil did a great job as well, I didn't really like how Noory still was trying to spin it by implying that "Lemke still hasn't been heard from on this" and "we haven't really gotten to the bottom of this yet." Is he always like that?

Finally ventured over to Hoagland's site, and it's as impenetrable as ever. I can't understand how anyone takes him seriously. And I don't know how he has avoided a cease and desist letter from Paramount for using the Star Trek graphics all over the place... [-(

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Lyford Rome
"Zis is not nuts, zis is super-nuts!"
Mathematician Richard Courant on viewing an Orion test

Have you guys noticed that a link to this thread is on the front page of fark.com?

http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comm...IDLink=1361933

Only a "tiny" problem on that forum...someone calls Phil, Bill. :wink:

Fark? That would explain why this board is getting hit so hard.

By the way, it's too early to slam space.com either. I'll wait and see how this plays out, though hopefully I can do what I can to keep this from spinning out of control.

Over 12,000 hits last time I checked Fark. You're a hit! =D>

(edited to add: check out the "most number of users online", almost 800 at one point. )

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Now while I might be amused by Cthulhians, I don't necessarily distrust them to carry out the functions of government. -- JayUtah

What's it like being a skeptic in the Middle East? Check out my blog.

Dear Mr The Bad Astronomer (golly its the man himself ),
what levels of "out of control" could this result in??? More harsh language from NASA or court rooms??? I suppose it depends on how one views the impact of the case for the scientists involved...has any permanent damage been done to their reputations?
Cases with less substance have been tried in the US...or is this just a european stereotype of the american justice system???

Trob

Ps: when am I not a newbie anymore LOL

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second technician Rimmer, Arnold J., experienced what can only be described as a voyage to trip-out city

Just consider it practice for the next Slashdot listing! \/

Though I couldn't get on for a while there - refresh.... refresh... refresh.....

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Lyford Rome
"Zis is not nuts, zis is super-nuts!"
Mathematician Richard Courant on viewing an Orion test

1. Well, we have indeed heard from Lemke, as posted above, but I don't think we should shoot the messenger, namely, Noory. He raises a good question. We haven't, really, gotten to the bottom of this.

What we have is a NEW story about Space.Com. How convenient. I mean, the important thing here, should be the science, and the focus, instead, is on the reporting.

The fact remains, that formaldehyde at 130 parts per billion, and methane signatures, have all been observed, measured, and documented in the martian atmosphere. What does that mean?

I think, that it's GREAT that this question is being discussed on CoasttoCoastAM.Com, and I'm glad that Space.Com posted their story. I'm glad MSNBC and the Boston Herald picked it up. I'm glad that people are talking, beyond the scientific community. I'm glad that there is speculation, imagination, and wonder occurring about the question of life on Mars.

I'm glad that Lemke attended a "meeting", and that this "meeting" was reported on, and that Lemke probably spoke out on her opinions (maybe not her findings) as to what this all means, at said "meeting".

I'm glad that a couple "attendees" from that meeting (whoever they were) thought it was important enough, to disclose it to Space.Com, and I'm glad that there is the possibility that we are gently moving towards, perhaps, a publication of findings and a review by peers on the conclusions that, if not Lemke, then perhaps Vitorrio Formisano might be inching towards. Who's gonna get there first? The US or Europe?

Kudos to journalists asking hard questions. Hurray for brave and couragous news sources for getting their hands dirty, and reporting on things that matter, versus things that are accepted or comfortable. I'd like to know, beyond the Lemke statement by the way, who the sources were that reported to Space.Com. If they were good sources, then the story is still significant, and perhaps factual. So I hope Space.Com continues to provide brave and couragous reporting. That's what we need.

I'm glad that the ESA is holding a symposium on the scientific discussion of the Mars data, and I'm pleased that they are devoting an hour to the discussion of Life on Mars, and exobiology.

Basically, I think it's sad that this has not happened yet. For me, the question of Life on Mars is moving beyond wonder, and into prevelance, on a number of different levels. I think it's sad that the journalistic implications surrounding the Space.Com story, are what are going to be the focus on this meeting that took place between Lemke and "space officials". On the one hand, there is the truth, and on the other hand, there is politics, careers, and power.

As for me, I'm going to keep reading Space.Com, more than ever, not in spite of this story, but BECAUSE of this story. I like what they inferred, and I like what the Rio Tinto data infers, and I'd like to see THAT discussed in the news. Certainly, whether or not we are alone in the universe...Is the topic worthy of being explored by journalists.



2. On the second point, I do have to agree with you. I think Hoaglands' website sucks. Not because of the content, but because of the design. I think Mr. Hoagland needs to hire a new website designer, because every time I go there, I get completely lost. Don't get me wrong. I HONOR, RESPECT, and ADMIRE creativitiy, imagination, and speculation, and I think Mr. Hoagland makes a good point, in the sense that speculation has its rightful place in science. The danger, of course, is when speculation moves into the analysis and conclusion portion of the scientific process, but that's not to say that using ones imagination is an error. Someone has to be the kooky one, and I think Mr. Hoagland does a fine job, and I mean that with the utmost respect and admiration. We need more brave, kooky thinkers to help us move forward. Einstein was kooky, Hawking is very kooky. Mr. Hoagland could be right on many points, but that doesn't mean, that a hypothesis must be assumed. Digression aside, I wish he would revamp his site, because it makes no logical, navigational sense whatsoever, beyond Mr. Hoagland and his own imagination. That does him and his quest no good, when trying to convey and possibly convince the rest of us, as to his ideas and speculations.

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hole

Yes ... Except when he's worse!
In the fantasy world he lives in, RCH is soley responsible for NASA naming the first shuttle prototype Enterprise, so by his reasoning (?) that gives him the rights to the name! The irony is that the Enterprise was used for drop testing of the glide and landing characteristics and it was not space-rated, so it never left the atmosphere. :roll:

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Any day you wake up on "the right side of the dirt" is a good day.

T. Anderson

It was not a "meeting" (with or without the quotation marks). It was a party - an informal gathering!

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Any day you wake up on "the right side of the dirt" is a good day.

T. Anderson

Well, no you're actually wrong. I mean, hey, let's get specific.

Lemke said that it was a "private party of space exploration enthusiasts in which there was a discussion about the possible meaning of the results..."

Right! Now, Space.Com reported that it was "a group of space officials at a private meeting"

So, you're now describing it as an "informal gathering".

Unless you know something I don't, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Look, presidents have decided on war and peace, over a simple cup of tea. If you have a group of high ranking space officials, all in the same room, and all discussing the implications of scientific findings and data collected at Rio Tinto...You can describe it any way you want, IT'S A MEETING!

So, there's no disputing that this meeting took place. What is an interesting part of debate, is whether or not Lemke was providing her opinion (which we all know is that there is life on mars), or, whether Lemke is moving towards the next step of publishing a "finding" in a known scientific journal, specifically, Nature.

So, let's say that the Space.Com informants provided accurate information, and that this is true. Well, I can see how a leak, can cause some difficulty. Now, you've got the ESA and Vitorrio well aware that potentially, Lemke and the US could be in the history books. OOPS! Quick, issue a public statement. Change of plans! Also, perhaps it's not, exactly, the time, or the research isn't concluded yet. You think Lemke want's to see her career and reputation brought down the drain, by a Space.Com story? I think not.

In any event, quotes or no quotes, it was a meeting.

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hole