Actually, my "concern" is that you seem to think that it isn't necessary to look at the evidence. ALL the evidence. That's all I've ever asked from you...evidence. There is NO evidence to support the ETH...and you can say what you want, but that's the "long and short" of it.

Oh...you mean this one...

OK...the reason I didn't answer is that I can't picture that the discovery of ET would have much (if any) effect on a "typical" person. Most ordinary folks have enough problems of their own (money, love life, etc.) that unless they are personally touched by this...they really won't care. (sad, I know)

You need to get out more, A.DIM...your choice of reading material appears to be very limited.

The credulousness of the general public makes me sad.


This really isn't about General Astronomy any more...so I'm bowing out of this thread.

I believe there is life on other planets. I have no evidence to support this.

I believe there are unidentified flying objects. my main evidence to support this is that a lot of people see things in the sky w/out knowing what they are (my boss is a whiz at identifying satellites, though).

do I believe that these two beliefs necessarily intersect? I do not. "UFO" does not always translate to "alien spacecraft," as the BA and his flock of ducks have adequately proved. or that nice lady from SETI whose name I can't remember and the moon. how many other people have seen the exact same thing and not been able to realize that it's a flock of ducks or the moon? and yet if you told them, how many would then argue because "they know what they saw"?

well, obviously, they didn't. if they knew what the saw, it was an IFO--an Identified Flying Object. but they say they saw a UFO.

this, to me, is ignoring science. it is definitely ignoring evidence.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

I'm not going to repeat myself if I don't have to. (I spell it out for you in the next section). The only dancing I see is you stating: "No matter, I'm not here to gain your "acceptance" or prove the ETH, only express myself and share ideas" -- and then keeping this going.Suggest all you want. I believe you spun the article A.DIM. You'll just have to deal with that. The article in question was just speculative musings and you turn it into an amazement "at the rapidity with which these sorts of articles are published by seemingly credible sources.." followed by a so-called "joke" about "desensitizing" which conveniently ties in with your "amazement." I think it was your typical net-mining spin and said so.Where are they now? where are they from? how far do they travel?, why do they "act" the way they do when they travel LY to get here?, why isn't there any hard evidence? and last but not least .. why do they have to be here at all?heh .. you got it backwards. Care to tell me how amazing the "rapidity with which these sorts of articles are published by seemingly credible sources" is again?Never said they were. If I find your presentation flawed enough to merit a response, why would I?Violent opposition? :roll: Hate to rock your world, but the "fundamentals of astronomy, astrobiology, and other sciences" doesn't require flying saucers. I think you made it clear that this is your latest spin, nothing more. It was your tactics I addressed. So? .. what's that got to do with me? I told you what I thought about it.Depends on what it is.Your reliance on net/quote mining and continued citations of polls is why I made that comment. It's a flawed "appeal to authority"and is fair game. I said "I think for myself" BTW and it refers to my rejection of such tactics when debating the merits of something. You can try to twist my words around to allude a personal attack when there wasn't one, but it won't hold water. The only opposition to the ETH I have is your version of it A.DIM. Most people that allow the possibility of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe don't even call it an "ETH" - that's UFO-speak.Why, because I often point out that phrases like "pseudoskeptic" is a UFO-site catch-phrase for those that don't "allow" flying saucers and is nothing but whiny rhetoric that has nothing to do with the real issue?Not really. If you didn't keep this going, I wouldn't be posting this to you. Anytime you want to get into the nuts and bolts of the article itself, you go right ahead.Well .. that depends on how you post, doesn't it?

So I looked at the article. Almost at the beginning is this line:

Incorrect statement. First you must start with EVIDENCE. Using math without evidence is like counting the number of Angels that can fit on the head of a pin: You can come up with any answer you want by choosing whatever assumptions "feel" right to you. As things stand, we can hardly begin to fit data to the incredibly oversimplified Drake equation.

We have only one example of a truly technological species that, as of yet, can't send a realistic probe to the nearest star. I'm optimistic about our future, but it is still an assumption that we will ourselves go to other stars. This isn't a question of being skeptical - it is just admitting WE DON'T KNOW YET.

Speculation is fine as long as we understand that is all it is. But we shouldn't state assumptions as fact.

Are we alone? Probably not.

Are "they" relatively close? Probably not.

Based on things like interstellar distance and speed of light hurdles, will we meet an advanced race of ET beings? Probably not.

Amen

Your evidence is ... ?

Again, evidence?

Why would the speed of light be such a great barrier to meeting another technological species?

You are making my point: You have picked a position, and are making assumptions to fit the position. I have NOT picked a position. Perhaps the universe is full of technological species. Perhaps we are the only ones. Without evidence, there is no way to make a determination.

Well, I thought about just reiterating astronomer Haisch's ideas about the "Speed of Light Limit Argument" against the ETH, but chances are someone would argue with me and ask for a source.

So...
I did my data / quote mining and came up with this:

The Speed of Light Limit Argument.

Be sure to check out some of the related articles on advancements in propulsion research.

We simply know too little about interstellar travel to say "probably not;" the more skeptical notion would be to withhold judgement one way or another.

But I'm curious, do some of you think an ET species, say 500 million years more advanced than us, would still be constrained by our current understanding and technology?

Remember, "any sufficiently advanced technological species would be indistinguishable from magic," or something along those lines.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

Are we alone? I know I am. I like it cause I can walk around the house in my underwear.

Are "they" relatively close? If they are they're not going to like what they see . . .

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Now while I might be amused by Cthulhians, I don't necessarily distrust them to carry out the functions of government. -- JayUtah

What's it like being a skeptic in the Middle East? Check out my blog.

What if it was smack-dab in the Crab Nebula? Sounds like it would be an issue to me. I'm not disputing what you said Van Rijn, actually I agree with it. I just tossed my two cents into the "are we alone?" kitty. Opinions usually are based on self-assumptions.Why? "Probably not" is just an opinion and if everyone withheld their opinions on something for which we have no answer, it would be a boring bulletin board indeed, don'tcha think?Of course not. But if things like FTL travel turn out to be impossible, they are impossible for everyone -technological advancement notwithstanding.I agree but science is still science. I'm not ready to embrace concepts like FTL travel just because someone from AD 90 would find a cigarette lighter "magic." Maybe the light-speed barrier will be overcome or side-stepped some day, but then again .. maybe it won't. I think it's a significant hurdle myself.

I ask because I often wonder How Advanced Can A Civilization Become?

Which begs the question Where Does Intelligent Life Come From?

Yeah, yeah, I know; data mining does it again! :wink:

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

Does what? Speculation is just that whether someone else does it or you and I do it.

Nothing, actually.
I've been accused of data mining sympathetic snippets in the past and
thought these links might be (mis)construed as such.
I see I was wrong; sorry.

I agree, and as said before, all we have is opinion concerning the ETH.
I sometimes consider myself a futurist (by examining the past :wink and am interested when a scientist such as Kaku discusses the possibilities for advanced civ according to the laws of physics.
Personally, I see such scenarios as possible; I daresay probable.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

I don't understand why the speed of light is presented as an obstacle to interstellar travel. We all know that all you have to do is get close to the speed of light, and the time dilation effects allow you to travel interstellar distances in weeks, hours, maybe even days.

Sure, when you get back home many years will have passed, but really, big deal. You get a trip to another star -and- a trip to the future all wrapped up in one. Cool 8)

So the real problems are simply technological, and we'll have those licked within a few hundreds years, possibly much sooner. A fusion reactor here, some fancy shielding there, and off we go. That's why I don't think it's an 'if we can do it' issue, but a 'how soon can we do it' issue.

And if we can do it, there's probably a 'they' out there who have already done it. And I wouldn't be surprised if they came our way sooner or later. Maybe they already have.

How do we KNOW this? Have we done it? We know the theoretical underpinnings of near-C travel, but have we done it to KNOW what it takes?

Sure, we'll just march into Baghdad and they'll woo us with flowers.

Simplistic statements do not engender simple solutions to complex problems.

Wishful thinking is not logic.

Maybe if you weren't leaving something behind you'd consider it cool .. but to me, as much as I'd relish a trip to a distant star system at near light-speeds, I wouldn't do it if given the opportunity for this very reason.

I think if interstellar flight is to be viable, as opposed to just technically possible, we will have to overcome this distance barrier by more than just taking advantage of time-dilation. I don't like the thought of us stuck in our neck of the woods any more than the next guy, but if treks to distant stars/galaxies ever become a reality I imagine it'll take more exotic methods of travel. Could it happen someday? maybe. I like to think that, given enough time, our civilization will do all that is possible to do .. but I'm not ready to jump on the worm-hole/warp-drive bandwagon yet.

Since we're speculating...why not just send an unmanned (or in ET's case, "unaliened") probe to check around for potential neighbors? As regards the original question, "are we alone?", I really hope not but there doesn't seem to be any definitive way that we can tell right now. Perhaps at some point we'll have more evidence. Right now the only answer that seems to suffice is, "we don't know".

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An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get all sorts of weird bugs!