|
| If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|||||||
| Register | FAQ | Members List | Calendar | Mark Forums Read |
| View Poll Results: How many intelligent civilizations are there in the Milky Way? | |||
| 1 (us) |
|
50 | 21.83% |
| 10 |
|
44 | 19.21% |
| 100 |
|
32 | 13.97% |
| 1,000 |
|
36 | 15.72% |
| 10,000 or more |
|
67 | 29.26% |
| Voters: 229. You may not vote on this poll | |||
![]() |
|
|
LinkBack (1) | Thread Tools | Search this Thread | Display Modes |
|
|||
|
Quote:
It seems to me that a civilization with substantial interplanetary capability would eventually move toward interstellar exploration, especially if they found a nearby world with water, land, oxygen and chlorophyll. At least a robot probe after a few hundred years—imagine how capable robot probes will be in 2500 AD--even ours. And who could imagine ET wouldn’t find some motive to go in person within a few thousand years? With biology stretching lifetimes to many centuries, even millennia; with the relative cost of interstellar travel modest, with all the diversity, ideologies and causes that will arise in ten thousand years of a civilization occupying dozens, hundreds, even thousands of celestial bodies. Will they never have a psychotic group seeking Truth on X world, or Lebesraum, or Utopia; a mad scientist, a greedy nut—all of this aside from the rational or romantic reasons to explore a New World. It seems to me almost inevitable that they will make the step—someday. Bob |
|
||||
|
Trouble is, it takes more than a mad scientist or a cult following to finance an interstellar spacecraft.
A spacecraft capable of carrying live specimens to another planetary system would require several times the energy used by our own civilisation in a year. But maybe even fringe groups will have access to vast amounts of energy in some advanced civilisations. If a stay-at-home civilisation can tap the vast energy resources of the local star then such a project might be trivial; a civilisation which has built a partial Dyson shell, for instance, could spare the energy to send off several interstellar missions per day. Long before a civilisation in a single solar system begins to collect significant fractions of the local star's power, it will reach a level of wealth far beyond our current imaginings. A sizable population of a trillion sentients in a planetary system with access to a millionth of that star's output would each receive 30000 kilowatts of usable power per hour. If a small proportion of such a fabulously (energy)wealthy civilisation were to band together they could easily provide the energy required to get to another star.
__________________
New Orion's Arm Site . The Starlark . Against a Diamond Sky (OA Novella Collection) . OA Flickr set |
|
||||
|
Quote:
with regards
__________________
All words, phrases, definitions and theories provided in the above post are, unless otherwise stated, the property of Champion Munch © 2005. Sign up to sue the Sun |
|
||||
|
Thanks Eburacum, I made up that list as I went along, although I had been thinking about it for a while.
The common assumption that all species or civilization groups within that species does will act a certain way would seem to be a fallacy. However, it is also observable that disparate cultures often eventually unite into a monoculture with at least some common characteristics. See how far the US has come since the first groups established colonies in North America. Sure we have a long ways to go, but picking two random people from the US will show that we are more alike than different. Moreover, a political union will end up designing certain features into the members of that civilization. This can happen two ways, cultural assimilation or physical conquest. That is, they will either agree upon certain general points of behavior and become space capable, or they will conquer, possible to the point of annhilation, the less adventursome subgroups in their species. Of course, the less adventursome subgroups may win, but then they would be less likely to become space faring. This means that any space-faring species we contact are more likely to have very common characteristics, at least from our perspective. But, I agree that it would probably not be to the extent caricatured with Star Trek aliens. One reason I think we may not have been contacted, if there really are aliens, is that they are waiting for us to initiate. I don't mean a prime directive or a zoo hypothesis, but something more like a welcome mat or a doorbell. One of the few likely assumptions we could make about spacefaring intelligent aliens is their understanding of physics. They will understand wave-particle duality as well as the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. They will know, perhaps from trial and error, the universal principle of Meus et Tuus: Mine and Yours. I think the one thing that may be in common agreement is to stay away unless and until invited. This puts the onus on us to put out a "doorbell." A doorbell, being a combination Rosetta Stone and contact protocol should be developed by us and, perhaps, broadcast. It is interesting and useful to note that some people have tried to develop a protocol for the chance that an alien should land on earth, but we need to go the next step and give them landing instructions. While this may seem to fall on the universal intention fallacy (or whatever it is called), we need not assume that there is more than one (if any) alien waiting at this point in time. I hope that made sense.
__________________
"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau |
|
||||
|
Quote:
There is no such thing today as a unified American culture. The American way of life is as variable as Americans.
__________________
My son is my universe. |
|
||||
|
Quote:
It's not the culture, which are diverse, but the behaviors that often are.
__________________
"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau |
|
||||
|
Quote:
But McDonald's is a part of American culture, I'll let you have that one.
__________________
My son is my universe. |
|
|||||||
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You should begin by addressing Van Rijn's: Quote:
|
|
||||
|
Quote:
http://www.orionsarm.com/civ/Dyson_Spheres.html
__________________
New Orion's Arm Site . The Starlark . Against a Diamond Sky (OA Novella Collection) . OA Flickr set |
|
||||
|
Quote:
I'll narrow that down to one question. How about addressing just this: Quote:
__________________
An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get all sorts of weird bugs! |
|
||||
|
Quote:
I pointed out that you are avoiding direct questions; you got offended for being called on that... again. You accused me of not having a job or a life. for no reason.
__________________
The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom. --Isaac Asimov |
|
||||
|
Quote:
__________________
"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau |
|
||||
|
Hmm...I see Mr. Thompson has yet to answer Van Rijn's question (or any of the others either). Something to pass the time while we wait, perhaps?
Quote:
__________________
An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get all sorts of weird bugs! |
|
||||
|
Quote:
Man, you're like a pit bull. Latch on and don't let go... I like that ![]()
__________________
There are few left who Stare at the skies with wonder Wishing to know more; The clouds still drift by above But the eyes below are blind. --Laura Lundberg Check out my writing, maybe. |
|
||||
|
Quote:
It's just, well come on, Mr. Thompson accuses NASA of lying to and bam-boozling the public, the motive of which is money and job security. And then, he expects noone to call him on this? Pa-leeze! In fact, if you're reading this, William, please stop surfing/bumping the old threads and return here to explain how/why you see this accusation as being valid.
__________________
An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get all sorts of weird bugs! |
|
||||
|
If I can return to the topic which was briefly raised a few posts back;
there is a well-known tendency for science fiction authors and screenwriters to treat alien species or races as if they were a monolithic monoculture, with all (or nearly all) members of that species displaying certain well-defined and simplistic behavioural traits. We can call this the Klingon Fallacy; all Klingons are warriors (but in many other ways are identical to humans). If and when we do encounter alien intelligent lifeforms they are not at all likely to behave like slightly modified human stereotypes, and they may be extraordinarily diverse within their species. I expect that an advanced civilisation will generally become more diverse with time, because they will develop the capacity for self modification sooner or later; but that might not be a universal rule. Perhaps an advanced species will converge upon an idealised form, whether physical or psychological in nature. But an alien species might be so different from humanity that we cannot discriminate between the different forms of their behaviour easily. Conversely humans (a pretty diverse bunch you will agree) might appear remarkably uniform when observed by a truly alien alien; all or most of our behaviour might be perceived by such an alien observer as conforming to certain strict rules, which we do not notice because we are so familiar with them. Donald Brown of the University of California prepared a list of so-called human universals, which might be observed in any culture to a greater or lesser extent at any time; http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/universals.html he includes such behaviours and traits as mental maps, territoriality, self distinguished from other, tabooed foods, females do more direct childcare, preference for own children and close kin (nepotism), weaning, childhood fear of loud noises and strangers, pretend play, toys, husband older than wife on average, sexual regulation includes incest prevention, mourning, empathy, food sharing, turn-taking, group living, sexual jealousy, anthropomorphization, interest in bioforms (living things or things that resemble them), murder proscribed, males engage in more coalitional violence, males more aggressive, males more prone to lethal violence, males more prone to theft, dreams, symbolism, body adornments, right handedness as population norm- and so on and so on... not all human individuals or societies display all of these traits, but they are very common indeed. If we meet with an entirely alien intelligent race they may be expected to share some of these traits- but we cannot really tell in advance which ones they will share with us. An alien observer need not share many or most of the these behaviours herself/himself/itself. He/she/it might notice these apparently human universal traits almost immediately, and to such an outsider the human race might appear remarkably uniform
__________________
New Orion's Arm Site . The Starlark . Against a Diamond Sky (OA Novella Collection) . OA Flickr set |
|
||||
|
Here's an interesting question. HOW diverse?
I imagine that, a million years into the future, assuming humanity starts up colonies on other worlds and propogates throughout a major portion (if not beyond!) the galaxy, that quite a few of those colonies will house humans that are ... shall we say... "beyond human". Whether through natural adaptation to an alien environment (and being out of the "mainstream genetic pool" for so long), through gengineering, or even through cybernetics (depending on how that cybernetics works; if we could download our brains onto computers, couldn't we also make our own mind, and then download parts of our personality into it to make another "us"?), etc. So you could have one species, and then with enough time and exploration, end up with a million species.
__________________
There are few left who Stare at the skies with wonder Wishing to know more; The clouds still drift by above But the eyes below are blind. --Laura Lundberg Check out my writing, maybe. |
|
||||
|
Quote:
__________________
New Orion's Arm Site . The Starlark . Against a Diamond Sky (OA Novella Collection) . OA Flickr set |
|
||||
|
For the record, by the by, I still want Thompson to answer the questions put forward by NC More.
__________________
There are few left who Stare at the skies with wonder Wishing to know more; The clouds still drift by above But the eyes below are blind. --Laura Lundberg Check out my writing, maybe. |
|
||||
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it. - Don Marquis Join the Illuminati
|
|
||||
|
Quote:
__________________
My son is my universe. |
|
||||
|
Quote:
Moreover, William_Thompson has repeatedly failed to meet his obligations here, despite the warnings issued by the forum staff. Contrary to his claim of "not having the time" to participate on this thread, he's not only needlessly bumped other, unrelated threads, but has actively posted in other discussions while evading the questions posed here. I made it abundantly clear that such behavior is not tolerated on this forum. Account terminated. |
|
||||
|
Quote:
Eburacum, your post about the Klingon Fallacy was what I was getting at. I was also thinking that if interstellar flight is universally difficult, then the aliens would need to have a unity of purpose and it would be apparent in the crew/passengers of any vessels we might contact.
__________________
"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau |
|
||||
|
Quote:
Now it seems his taking a break is being interpreted as further avoidance of answering questions, but that may not be the case. It may be, as I suggested, William just taking a much needed cooling off period. While I certainly believe William needs to be accountable for his actions, I would like to respectfully request his termination be reconsidered. |
|
|||
|
Quote:
Why should evolution slow to such a degree? Especially with such a huge Diaspora of Homo Sapiens? Even if a new world were inhabited only once every thousand years, a million years would yield a thousand colonies, which would be genetically isolated more profoundly than anything experienced on Earth at least since the emergence of Homo Sapiens. Bob |
|
|
| Wīlliam_Thompson |
|
This message has been deleted by Wolverine.
Reason: Sock puppet of the banned.
|
|
||||
|
Quote:
__________________
"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau |
![]() |
| Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.bautforum.com/life-space/18814-how-many-intelligent-civilizations-milky-way.html
|
|||
| Posted By | For | Type | Date |
| ApolloHoax.net - Global Warming article | Post #963 | Refback | 11-July-2007 02:16 PM |