One way life can get from star to star is freeze-dried, floating on rubbish. At non-relativistic velocities, this takes millions of years, so there isn't much commercial potential there. A number of lifeforms here have the ability to shut down when times are harsh, and start back up when circumstances change. Viruses go inert. Some protozoans sporulate; that is, they form a dried-out egg with zero metabolism. On adding water, the daughter creatures swim away. I'm not particularly promoting panspermia here, just recapping. One reason why a species might travel would be if it foresaw its own demise-- no choice, migrate or die! If they couldn't solve the Einstein riddles, they'd find a way for something of themselves to survive the non-relativistic trip. Eggs in stasis, frozen germ cells tended by robots-- whatever.

Pardon my rambling. I have personally opened up a bit of millions-of-years-old shale, and found the fern still green inside. The fern didn't survive, of course, but what about its microscopic parasites? Sometimes the forces that drive a migration have little to do with choice. And the thing we need to keep foremost in mind when considering the possibility of alien life is that it might be... alien. I don't have any of the evidence you seek of actual, real-life aliens, unless we are they, but that's philosophy, not hard science. Steve

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Ignoramus et ignorabamus.-- Reymond

Wir mussen wissen. Wir werden wissen.--Hilbert

Pick one.

“Dating methods based on radio-isotope ratios is how we came up with that number.”

John, I thought you explained this well, and I would like to add that radio-isotope dating is not, by any means, the only way in which dating is done.

Humans have kept astronomical records in China for about five thousand years. It’s possible to correlate these records with historical events in China and elsewhere.

Something as simple, as easy to understand, and as unambiguous as tree ring dating can demonstrate a time line going back about 11,000 years. In the Southwestern United States there are hundreds of thousands of petroglyphs that can be dated by measuring the amount of desert varnish deposited on these Native American works of art. A substantial number have been dated to more than 7,000 years old.

Sedimentary deposits in glacial lakes, known as varves, are set down in fairly distinct annual layers, and can be counted like tree rings. Such dating has been taken as far back as 40,000 years ago.

There are many other approaches to dating such as themoluminescene, archeomagnetic and obsidian hydration. And there are many approaches to relative dating such as bone-age dating, analysis of linguistic and genetic drift, and seration analysis of technological, architectural, and artistic developments.

Radio-isotope and fission track dating, combined with stratigraphic dating, typological cross-dating, all of the above methods, and many others, allow one to check and cross-check the reliability of all of these dating methods, of individual dates, and of the grand chronology of the Earth. With all of this we have developed considerable confidence about our overall understanding of dates in pre-history and in geologic time.

:unsure: There must be life more advanced than us out there. Its unreasonable to usume otherwise. Concidering the age and size of the galaxy we are part of.We know the stable zone far enuff away from the galaxy core and all that radiated from it. As long as the planet has not undergone majer impact events for a few million years. Theres a good chance life will be evolving and thriving as it does here. Finding it or any trace of it is another question. We may never.
Finding information here on earth has not been easy, and when found not redally exepted. just looking at the datting of earths history is of some concern to some. I think there is ample evedance to suport the science of evolutionary progresion., but we can never all agree, nor should we. From questions come answers, its called progress. If we are not the desendance of aliens, or are not the resolt of some genetic experoment. Then are we the evolutionary resolt of the ape,? could be. I do like banana's. Have we been visated,? probebly not. Will we ever know,? same answer.

Hi Gang,
This was obviously a subject we all feel very passionate about. I would personally like to thank everyone who has replied it's been a most interesting read, Thanks.
jsc248.

John, you said, “I've said this before and I'll say it again today. We've been sending out signals substantial enough to escape our solar system for 68 years”

Well, I've said this before and I'll say it again:

The most important and easily detected signals we send are those having to do with atmospheric gases and other signals from the effects of life and of intelligence.

I don’t think the footprint of life is small—it’s been broadcast for about four billion years with an antenna of about 600 million square kilometers. Even we, before the end of the next decade will be able to detect methane or oxygen producing life within 50 light years or so of Earth. By the end of the 21st century, it’s hard to imagine that capability won’t be extended to a distance of many thousands of light years.

I think, almost by definition, advanced ETs will be at least as capable as us, and here are some of the things we know ET can look for (ET, thousands of years more technologically advanced than us, certainly than me, will know a lot more):

1. Oxygen and Ozone at levels higher than possible from non-biological sources of which we are currently aware. More than 20 times higher over the last 600 million years, and more than 12 times higher for more than two billion years.

2. Methane in quantities not possible on a sustained basis from non-biological processes of which we are aware on a planet as hot, as irradiated and with as much oxygen as Earth. With varying strength this signal has been sent out from Earth for about four billion years.

3. One of the human introduced pollutants in our atmosphere is lead, which has been used in metal working for more than 8500 years. The Romans increased the lead identified in Greenland ice cores hundreds of times above normal levels 2500 years ago.

4. Coal has been widely used for more than a thousand years. Burning coal releases radioactive uranium and thorium into the atmosphere.

5. Chemicals which came into widespread use in the 19th century, such as DDT (1870s), kerosene, naphthalene and gasoline (1850s), benzene (1860s), and chloroform (1840s).

6. Widespread use of freon has taken place for the last 75 years. For those 75 years we’ve used a 600 million square kilometer antenna to broadcast 24/7-360 degrees that we use refrigeration, have substantial electrical distribution and freight delivery systems, fractional horsepower electric motors, measures of some kinds of industrial activity, and lots of other implications.

There are lots of other opportunities for advanced ET, such as remote detection of chlorophyll.

And there will be lots of opportunities for us, in the next thousand years, to exploit all of these possibilities and many more I don’t know about; that no human knows about—yet. We’re on the cusp of doing many of these things within most of our lifetimes.

What is ET to think of a world with the right temperature, water vapor, an oxygen atmosphere, and too mcuh methane? All things transmitted from Earth for at least 600 million years. And then add chlorophyll.

How could advanced ET not know we are here? At least, if they’re within a few thousand light years. By 3000 AD we would know.

Bob

Good to see another optomist view. Yes we are on the cusp of discovery, and our abilaty to detect the signatures of life will find it. These are going to be interesting times. As you would note, I am on the hornes of a delema. On one hand I want to see alien life found, but becouse of the shear size of the universe wounder if we will find it near enuff to act on. This is an interesting subject for all of humanity. With as many issues to ponder as stars with planets.
You know it is posible we have been detected. They are comming..... :P lets put the coffee on.

I would hope that some of the phenomenons we are observing going on in outer space, as viewed through Hubble or other means, are NOT just natural events, but are also possibly the work of some super advanced ET's. Whether it is that they do these things to show us that they are here, or, that what things we are seeing are part of some grand construction of theirs.

It may very well be a mistake of humankind, to have too much focus in particular areas, while at the same time, missing out on opportunities that are right before our very eyes. Is it not possible that ET has been making itself as obvious to us all along??.......it's worth investigating.

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"Take a look out at the deep emptyness of everything you could never imagine". --- Molecular

This sounds like a adaption of Erick von Danikens Ideas. Diferent enuff to be read. and dismised as rubbish. Could we be the descendants of aliens who came to earth ... at what point of our history was this ment to happen.? Find some proof, and I will listen some more. Until then this theory is fiction, or a good idea for a book.

Hey Eyaj,
astromark just asked for proof, while your at it, please provide us all with some proof. That sounds wonderful, if true. I could have the blood of a god in my veins. Praise be!!

No you missed my point; or I never made it..lol
I am interested, and will read almost anything about this subject. Is it to much to ask for proof? I don't think so. It is easy to make speculative coment about what may have happened in our past. ,But how do or can we prove any of this. Only with evedance, proof. please.
I am interested in any ideas you have and belive myself that all of those biblical stories and wrightings of the moslim faith and even the budists and others no dought have stories that are very simular. In respect of the mesage given. Like a rule book for our servival. so what do think of that, Not bad for an athiest a...

You are all wrong! We are decendents of time traveling humans from the future! Those so-called grey aliens are actually highly evolved humans from a million years in the future that ocassionally come back in time to guide the development of their own species, which they themselves first started on Earth. Ok, I just made that up, but I'm sure I could find evidence that it was true without actually having any evidence that it was true. Ancient texts interpreted by someone (whethered credentialed or not) is not evidence. Eveidence is the mummified corpse of an alien (or god). It is a piece of obviously advanced (alien or godly) technology buried in a 10,000 year old clay pot in an ancient tomb. It is a text that clearly says (not interpreted by someone) that the aliens came from a star or world they called this in their ships and gave us this and that. You should also probably have the this or that as proof. Does this mean in 10,000 years someone will find a copy of Isaac Asimov's books and think that there was an advanced galactic empire that must have completely died out or that we've lost all contact with?

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...and we'll be saying a big hello to all intelligent life forms everywhere; and to everyone else out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together, guys...

yes.

Hi Eyaj,

all very interesting, but I couldn't for a minute class your articulate words as scientific proof of us having been visited sorry. A lot of previous posts in favour of aliens having been here have been along similar lines, I'm not sure if any have been as well researched as yours though!

I for one don't take them seriously at all. Along the same lines as John L I would argue that if one of our descendents in 4 thousand years found an Arthur C Clark book and used it to argue in favour of ET visitation, then it would be laughable. As for the information concerning the planets? I would need to see the texts myself to make up my mind.

yours,

Jake

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Of all the things I've ever lost, I miss my mind the most!

Let’s try a little critical thinking.

Who's reading these Sumerian writings besides Sitchin? No other scholar has interpreted early Sumerian writing as descriptive of an eighth planet. There are tremendous difficulties and pitfalls in translating a language that nobody's spoken for thousands of years, with very limited material, originating in a cultural milieu to which we have effectively zero access.

To me it's not believable that one could determine with even a reasonable probability fine distinctions like that between "lord," "watcher" or "god." Think of the difficulties we have accurately and meaningfully translating modern German or French, let alone Japanese. We don't know even what Shakespeare intended in some cases--and he wrote in English, he wrote a lot, and we know a huge amount about the milieu in which Shakespeare lived.

To move four thousand years earlier, move to a different, very foreign language, and a virtually unknown cultural milieu…how do you even have any idea what words go with what colors?

"Neptune was known in antiquity, I wrote; and the discoveries that were about to be made would only confirm ancient knowledge. Neptune I predicted, would be blue green, watery, and have patches the color of 'swamplike vegetation.'"

What did the ancient knowledge say? Not a modern paraphrase, but the literal words, with the issues of does this word mean this or that. Things you encounter reading any Shakespearean play.

Science, or any real scholarship, is filled with questions, uncertainties, discoveries waiting to happen. Sounds like Sitchin doesn't have many doubts. Certainty is the realm of faith, not science. "Proven true" sounds more like a preacher than an archeologist.

If Sitchine's is the only one who reads the stuff this way, how do we know he's not just making it up? Or maybe he's believes it, but nobody else would read it that way. Remember Percival Lowell who mapped the canals of Mars so carefully and in such detail.

Bob

Got a link that shows this seal? Of every thing I've ever read on astronomy and history, only the planets visible to the naked eye (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn) were known to anyone before the invention of the telescope. Some say Pluto isn't even a planet, but a member of the Kuiper Belt, which generally shares the orbit of Pluto and has members with much more eccentric orbits. What do the tiny icy moons of Uranus prove? They're still in fairly circular orbits, so a major event would either throw them out of orbit completely or destroy them.

The mass of all the asteroids is tiny. It wouldn't even be as big as the Earth's Moon if it was all clumped together. No one has ever said it was a shattered planet. It is simply the same material that made all of the other terrestrial bodies in the inner solar system, but it was not allowed to come together due to the gravitational influence of Jupiter. That is what everyone agrees. And WHERE in the Bible is there a mention of some kind of "hammered bracelet"?

The Moon is the same age as the Earth based on radio-isotope studies. Both are about 4.5 billion years old. And the accepted idea for the formation of the Earth-Moon system is that a MArs sized world collided with the proto-Earth, and the resulting debris thrown into space coalesced into the Moon. And how could the gas giants capture moons into nearly circular orbits if they were flung off into space? Orbital mechanics don't work like that. And what happened to Marduk? I'm sorry, but these tablets are in complete conflict with modern scientific preceptions...

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...and we'll be saying a big hello to all intelligent life forms everywhere; and to everyone else out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together, guys...

Eyaj,

the imformation you provide is up there with the interpretations of Nostradamus' writings.

It is very articulate, but my thoughts are that this is a scientific forum on whether or not we have been visited by alien life, not a speculative one about what Sitchen thinks about some ancient texts. Until you can provide firm evidence please discuss your theories elsewhere. Sorry.

Jake B)

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Of all the things I've ever lost, I miss my mind the most!

Jake makes a good point Eyaj. I aree with him. . . I have been reading all these links you have provided, Whew... Its all interesting enuff, but. If you discuss some thing for more than a reasonable time arent you in danger of becomming paranoide about it. As interesting as it is I dont see the proof of fact. It reads like a science fiction story not science facts. But your efforts have not been wasted. I am at least aware of this Satchin fellow. like Douglas adams...lol, lighten up fellows. Dont go taking me to seriously, I dont.

As I understand it, Sitchin got his knowledge of Neptune’s colors from the four thousand plus year old writings of the Sumerians.

Think critically: How does he know what color is associated with what word? Even if you have clues, which I doubt, like X Y Z where
X is a color
Y is somehow determined to be a descriptive connector, such as “was,” “appears,” “look like,” etc.
And Z is somehow determined to be an apple, as opposed to an orange, grapefruit, fig, flower, or who knows what.

So you come up with an interpretation that X refers to the color of an apple. But even that doesn’t help a lot. Could it be a green apple? What exact color were the apples growing in Sumeria 4000 years ago? I don’t know; maybe somebody knows; with enough money it could probably be determined. But did Sitchin do that? How did he figure out the colors?

One is confronted with wave after wave of unlikelyhoods.

You quote Sitchin as saying, “Neptune I predicted, would be blue green, watery, and have patches the color of 'swamplike vegetation.'"

Think critically: Where did he make this prediction and when? What did he actually say—the literal words, not some paraphrase. It easy to predict after the event; it’s also easy to color your prediction after the event.

Also, whenever he made the prediction, what was known about the coloring of Neptune. Any large Earth based telescope can easily image Neptune; what colors can be seen with a reasonably large telescope? Many people on this forum can probably attest to what can be seen with a good backyard telescope. To what extent were the colors produced by Viking an artifact of the photographic processing, and to what extent were the same artifacts introduced into 1976 and earlier Earth based imaging?

Line by line, word by word, critical analysis, use of original sources, full disclosure, precise use of words, competent use of logic and mathematics are all absolutely required in any scientific endeavor--just for a start.

Doesn’t sound to me like Sitchin has started.

Bob

Jambo Jakenorrish and Eyaj,

I do believe it would be wise for Jakenorrish to tackle it out of the forum with Eyaj through his email address than to hurt here; maybe you might continue there and get Eyaj's point of view. Eyaj, its true bring it on through another chanel, for this is a scientific forum.


Kenyan
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