Perhaps whales are communicating the secrets of the universe across the great oceans and we humans are too stupid to understand.

__________________
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

Right under our noses! How dare they!

Howdy all....another $.02 worth here...

While I'm not sure this applies to dolphins communicating across the planet or to whales communicating the secrets of the universe, I thought it was an interesting and relevent point to this thread. In "Cosmos" episode 11 "The Persistance of Memory", Dr. Carl Sagan talks about how once not too long ago, whales -were- able to communicate over very great distances (sorry, I forget exact numbers here), but in this last century their communication has been virtually cut off...because of man and all his great achievments (in this case boat and ship motors). As I said in my first post on this topic while man has indeed made some great achievments, we've also commited some incredible atrocities to go with them....this is certainly one of them. More then this, using the blue whales as an example...here we have a species that is much grander then ourselves and look what our great intelligence, technologies and superiour attitude has done to them...driven them to the brink of extinction. Is this the act of a truly superiour species? Should we one day find that whales are as intelligent as we are, or at least have the capability (assuming their not), how do we make up for this? Would a simple "I'm sorry for trying to commit genicide" be sufficiant? What should be our punishment? To address the original question in this thread of "what if some animals on earth evolved to be as smart as humans are? Say dolphins intelligance leveled off with humans, how would we react to this? Would we accept them as equals or what?", perhaps what should be asked is "how would they react to us" and "would they ever consider us as equals?"...it's a scary thought considering how we intelligent humans have treated them. Perhaps they'll be more understanding...or at least more forgiving then we have been.

ANSI...you should not so easily count out instinct...we have them too but our intellect has allowed us to not rely on them. I would like to point out that where you said, "Humans can use their tools and devices to explore and exploit regions and resources..." think about how many people have also died doing so. No beaver has ever died trying to reach the top of mount everest, no ant has ever died trying to dive to the bottom of an ocean and certainly no dolphin has ever been lost in a space shuttle disaster. Yes, intellect is a wonderful thing for us...it's what allows us (humans) as a species to survive...without it we'd be at the bottom of the food chain. If you take away our tools and toys, we're actually pretty helpless creatures to be sure. Place a hunter in the forest with only a knife or even a sword against a sizeable male buck and my money's on the buck! For most people today, if you take away projectile weapons (such as shotguns and even 200lb bows) and a large number of us would not survive in the wild. How many of us really would even know what kind of fruits and berries are eatable in the wild? Further in regards to this statement, one of the key problems with human intellect and your statement is the word "exploit". This comes back to the presumption that since we -consider- ourselves superiour, we have the right to do as we please to whatever we please however we see fit....this is a -very dangerous- line of thought. Through our ability to exploit our enviroment and our surroundings, with all of our great intelligence, how much damage have we caused....and are still causing? This isn't a political or social statement, it's a fact....we -have- to learn to respect our planet and the other species on it, regardless of our evaluation of intelligence if -we- are to survive. We have created many modern wonders, television, the internet, microwave ovens, cell phones, yadda yadda yadaa that we have become quite dependant on. These devices are mostly powered by electricity generated in large part by coal burning facitities that pollute the air we breath and rape the planet we live on. We also generate power with nuclear power facilities...you don't even want to go there! We build hydro-electric dams to change that course of rivers...take a look at what happens to the surrounding areas. We do have viable and safe sollutions to all of this that are enviroment friendly...solar power and wind farms just to name two, but where is our great intelligence when it comes to developing these resources? If humankind can split the atom, why the devil can't we harness the power of the sun? The tech all ready exists. With all of mans grate achievments and intellect, humankind as a whole is still very short sited and -very- arogant as a species. Instead of patting our selves on the back and telling ourselves how great we are because of what we've achieved, we should be looking to the future and using our intellect to determine whats the best way to put the achievments to use to ensure the continuation of our species...as well as those that share the planet with us.

As far as a political statment goes, in regards to our own country, I have to question how "smart" we actually are when we elect leaders to our country who want to drill for oil in Nature Preserves instead of putting forth the proper efforts to develope safe and enviromentally friendly alternative power sources...all for the sake of money and greed. With all of our great intelligence as a species, we have a horrible problem with greed....everybody wants "more"....faster internet, cell phones to use while their away from their phone, faster computers, bigger SUV's (with better gas milage), bigger TV's, louder stereos, newer houses, etc., etc., etc.. Why is it, with all our intellect we can not over come this basic instinct for "more"? Now for this at least, I do have a the start of a sollution...with the United States at least, we should outlaw campain contributions and "lobbying" of our political leaders. Our leaders should be elected based on their merrits and their ability to do the job and their opinions should not be allowed to be swayed by those that can line their pockets the most. Enviromental issues -are- important......extremely important if our species is to survive. These are not problems for future generations to have to deal with...if we're not very careful, there may not be many more future generations to fix the problems we've created with all of our intellect! We need to learn how to not only stop, but avoid things like wars intead of starting them. We need leaders who are "diplomatic"...and this is a very good point here....if we can't be diplomatic with so called "lower species" of this planet and learn to protect and respect them, how can we ever hope to save ourselves and respect each other? To key to much of this is to eliminate the greed factor...get rid of the money that sways the opinions (often in the wrong direction) of those that make the decisions.

I honestly don't think that it's nesaccary for "us" to have to evaluate "them". While I'm not christian and certainly don't hold with most christian beliefs, I do believe the idea before we judge others (in this case animals and other life forms on this planet...as well as other planets to come) we should first judge ourselves. Yea, as I've said, we've done some great things, but we've also done and continue to do some -very- bad things as well. If a higher intelligence or higher power were to "judge us", I wonder what would their judgement be and would we be found worthy of survival? No other species of this planet other then humans have hunted other species to extinction...and then called it "sport". No other species of this planet has excelled the way we do in the destruction of our own planet. What -are- we supposed to do when all of our natural resources are gone and our atmosphere is polluted beyond breathing? Just go and take someone elses planet away from them? Why with all of this grate intelligence that we supposedly possess do we seem to be unable to solve these problems before we create them?

I also do not believe that we need to see other species as being "intelligent" in order for those species to have value, to be apreciated or at the very least, deserve our respect. Perhaps what we should do is this...if we are going to consider ourselves to be superiour, then we should also acknowledge the responsibility we have as well. If we are the "smartest things on the planet" then don't we have a duty to protect -everyone- and use our intellect to ensure that all of us, big and small, survive? Perhaps it's simply my non-christian beliefs (again I'm eclectic pagan) that allows me to believe that -all- life is sacred and that everything has a right to survive. I also think it is quite wrong to let our love or respect for a living thing be based on our assessment of it's intelligence compaired with our own.

I could go on and on with this again, but I've already written another small book here . I'm obviously an advocate for animals...I simply love -critters- (as well as plants, trees and the Earth itself). When I look into the eyes of my dogs and cats, there's someone in there looking back at me. They -are- intelligent, even if that intelligence differs from my own...but much more importantly they have the ability to love (far more then many humans I've known). From the times I've been horseback riding, I can tell you horses are smart in their own right and each has their own seperate personality. I've had the wonderous pleasure and great honour of being able to swim with a dolphin...her name was Maya. I don't know if she was "smarter" then me but I can tell you that looking in her eye's, I -know- there's more in there then just animal instinct. We as humans have our intellect, but there are far more important things on Earth, let alone our there in the cosmos, and maybe these creatures can help to remind us of that...that alone is reason enough to value their presence. Instead of trying to evalute them, perhaps we should simply rejoice in their diversity, admire their natural abilities and maybe even try to learn a thing or two from them .

I wish you all bright blessings and gentle breezes,
Jim



BTW...if spelling is proof of someones intelligence, I must be one of the stupidest people on Earth....ain't ignorance bliss

Travelling across the ocean! How dare we!!

Most countries that don't depend on whales for food and oil don't whale. At one time they were the only source we knew of. Petroleum was nasty smelly stuff that bubbled up on bad property. They were just one other animal we depended on for food/products. A little hard to farm, so it wasn't as if we could create a sustainable source.

It is true that when we enter environments where our instincts are useless (such as space), we may be clumsy before we know what we are doing. Are you suggesting that that is an excuse to douse ambition and refrain from exploration?

It's not that I don't appreciate other animals. I just feel that mankinds first loyalty should be to mankind, just as a person's first loyalty should be to his family and country. It shouldn't prevent him from helping others or acting humane, but he should place the welfare of himself and other human beings before other species. These days, we have the luxury of conservation because we don't need the animals that we would have hunted to extinction in the past. However, I wouldn't complain if a country needed to continue hunting something, even to extinction, if it was to feed it's people.
For example, in Africa wars are regularly fought by one side burning the farmland and denying food to the other to break their will to resist. I heard of one instance where an environmental group was accosting a group of starving refugees, who were driven into a mountain, because they were hunting and eating gorrillas (gorillas being one of the only large animals present). Under my philosophy, those refugees need to look out for number one first before they have time to make such luxurious decisions as whether or not to conserve, and those environmentalists need to be smacked.

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http://amssolarempire.blogspot.com

Needless to say I think we must protect the animals. Mankind may be smarter but we certainly are not better. Taking care of the animals is part of taking care of Earth. Protect the gorillas, there are plenty of people.

__________________
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

lomitus1, re-Hey!! I was going to say that!

ASEI, re-Then what? Hunting something to extinction will not solve the problem of needing a sustainable food source. Better to solve the problem with the long-term view in mind.

And the "smarter" ones on the planet should certainly be capable of helping the desperate ones solve their food problems. Or, we will repeat what happened on Easter Island, on a planetary scale. :P

Burp...

__________________
Pre-Quote: 'To survive one has to experiment. When the environment changes, the traditional way of doing things doesn't work.'

Quote:
"It's the outriders, the organisms that seem to be maladjusted before the change, which are the only ones that survive these changes...in that way a species continues."

Carl Sagan

Could you be impuning motives beyond your accurate acquisition of supporting data? Are you convinced that we could not apply our technology to extract petroleum from areas of the earth we have designated as nature preserves without significantly polluting the site?

The development of alternative energy sources is a must if we are to survive without catastrophic consequences; however, we will need fossil fuels to achieve that development. Surely the profit motive plays a part in the production of more fossil fuels and we are well compensated by the many benefits that would not otherwixe be available to us.

Most members of the current biota survive by consuming one another. Prior to the rise of this particular species of primate to dominance, there were both non-biological and biological agents that "pruned the herd". I admit we sometimes take pruning to extremes and its usually due to our being slow learners as opposed to malice of forethought. It is our curiosity that has gotten us the progress to where we are and it also causes us to make some mistakes which it could help us to correct.

By what criteria are they grander than ourselves? The fact that there are those among us capable of predicting their likely future (although they themselves are not) and willing to take heroic measures to help them and, other species in danger of extinction, avoid that fate is at least worthy of note. We are not omniscient, merely thoughtful and compasionate; may we remain so and get better at it as days go by. The fact that they are facing extinction and we are less in danger suggests we may be superior in some respects (better able to survive the current environment); especially since we have sufficient compassion to try to help them.

Thoughtful contemplation is more likely to improve the situation than hyper-emotionalism leading to anger and frustration.

__________________
For those inclined to oppose human meddling with the structure of the universe or the composition and configuration of objects and groups of objects within the universe, consider:
Whether there is a limit to the magnitude of a modulation of chaos below which order remains invariant? Or, is order but a fiction invented by perspectives applied over finite, however large, time intervals?

Oh we are more than capable of feeding the world with the excess we dispose of here in the US. The problem is usually one of distribution, especially if there are hostile warlords or governments in our way.

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http://amssolarempire.blogspot.com

I'm simply stating that in order for an animal to realize that there is something greater than they...they would have to be able to realize this. Which I guess is what makes us different form other species correct?

So take the perception of one and try to apply it on a different scale and you would get their view point. Without knowing the way they perceive their realities, we cannot judge their intelligence based by our standards. It just wouldn't apply.

(did this make more sense? I apologize, my writing is sometimes off... h34r: )

Humans are the only animal that will protect the Earth from the next, inevitable, asteroid impact extinction event, which could easily kill all the dolphins, whales and gorillas, as well as 90% of the other species, and 99.99% of the individual life entities on the planet. Or maybe all life.

Humans are the only animal that will protect the Earth from the next, inevitable, big climate change—whether it’s glaciation or global warming—whether caused by humans, the sun, orbital mechanics or anything else. Such an event could easily kill half the species on Earth, and, as an extreme, all life on Earth.

Humans are the only animal that will protect the Earth from increasing solar luminosity or other unpleasant nearby cosmic events.

Humans are the only species that will seed life on other worlds and be sure it stays.

Humans are the only creatures that will leave a record of our existence, and the existence of our fellow creatures, of our world, our experiences, our thoughts and feelings for some other entity to find and know us by in a billion years.

If humans disappeared from Earth, what would be the point? A place hardly exists if it’s not observed. All the animals, rocks and water would do their thing; nothing would notice or care, except for a few animals for a few days. When the stage was struck in a 100 million or billion years; nothing at all would be remembered. It might as well never have been.

Humans are the only ones who could defeat that total oblivion. As far as we know humans are the most important entities in the universe. We have an obligation to try to protect Earth, and life, to remember the past, and to provide memories for the future. We are the only ones who can do this, which is partially why the needs of other life on Earth, and all aspects of Earth are subservient to our needs. We are the guardians and the memory.

Bobunf
You may be right, at the moment, we may acheive some or all of those potentials, we haven't yet.

It is also worth mentioning, that the Aborigines of Australia use a mainly Oral Culture to record thier history and law, the bark and rock paintings and sand designs worked to compliment that, the maintainance of knowlege and history was thus done through stories, song, dance and art. I guess that is the story for most of human civilisation. They now make the next transition to the internet, they, we adapt. I mentioned in an early post the case of the gorrila online.

I think some of the more interesting aspects of animal intelligience are social behaviours of elephants, like the drinking order at water holes, youngest and oldest, then females and males last.

And as far as art, if you consider music, in particular song, many speices leave us for dead, particularly birds, again, the artisictic aspect, I think the whales take it to the next level. In Australia, there are two migratory routes, down the West and East coast, the interesting thing is, the seperate groups of whales, traded whale song.

In Archatecture, the Bower Bird decorates the bower with blue white and shiny objects. Again, in the sustainability stakes, termites build mounds orintated in a north south direction, with an advanced system of ventilation that maintains a temperature year round, as do bush turkeys.

As for practical, useful activities to humans, dolphins have some place in the American navy I beilieve, placing/detecting mines?

Dogs, can smell drugs/bombs and warn us, somthing that technology is only now becoming able to.

And horses, before the car, these four legged animals helped us quite a bit, as they do now in some developing countries, as to Oxen. There is a story in Australian folklore about a donkey in Galipoli (world war 2) that was used for carrying dead and wounded soldiers along the cliffs, when the medic who normally lead the dokey was shot, the donkey remembered the way. Not an uncommon story with pets finding thier way home over great distances.

I think, as the only speicies with an opposable thumb, it is a little unfair and indeed ignorant to judge every other creature by our abilities. We wouldn't compare to the octupus, for example or bats were they to do the same.

I think the really interesting area, for me with animal intelligence is primates. We can teach a vocabulary of signs to chimpanzees and gorillas, and that vocabulary increases each generation, but, we still cannot have a three way conversation between the three spieices. That would be a great step in cross speicies communication. They (chimps and gorillas) don't seem to mind having a pet kitten around, so why won't they talk to each other?

And, wonder if anyone can enlighten me, was is a dog or a chimp that was the first living being to return from space?

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Hehehe...I just love "stirring the pot"...
Ok... gonna take these one at a time here.

Ansi...my issue isn't with those that have hunted for food because they needed it. Take tbe Native Americans for example, they only took what they -needed- and they had very great respect for the creatures that sustained them. My issue is with those that hunt and kill needlessly (i.e. sport hunters). While I don't have any "facts" to back this up, I honestly don't think that too many animals on this planet have been hunted to extiction (or close to it) out of -need-...what possible need could there ever been to have hunted Bald Eagles???? Whales are not the -only- species I was reffering to or that humans have adversly effected...we've slaughtered many species wholesale for no other purpose then "entertainment" and "recreation"....this is -wrong-.

I'm going to quote myself here for a moment..."simple "I'm sorry for trying to commit genicide" be sufficiant? What should be our punishment?". Again, this does not refer to just whales. I seem to recall that there is a trial going on overseas right now of a former Yugoslav President who is accused of variour war crimes, including attempted genicide. Now I will admit that I do not draw a distinction between human life and other forms of life on this planet...again I believe that all life is sacred. To me, I don't understand why commiting genicide against -humans- is so wrong, but commiting genicide against a non-human species is so much easier for people to accept. To me, killing is -wrong-...wiping out an entire species (human or otherwise) is a horrible atrocity...period.

Also, as I said (and I thought clearly) before, if human kind is to survive we need to respect the other forms of life on this planet and the planet itself. You stated " I just feel that mankinds first loyalty should be to mankind" and "he should place the welfare of himself and other human beings before other species". Maybe this is one of the problems with our species...selfishness. Again your statement suggests an heir of presumptousness that man kind has the right to do whatever we please and again look at the damage we've caused with this line of thinking. -If- mankind is so great and so smart and so superiour, then why can't we -learn- to treat ourselves, our planet and those that share it better? Lets look at the rain forests for a minute. Many rain forests across the globe have been and continue to be clear cut and burned by local people to use the land for farming etc.. To those people they are taking care of themselves...this is their livelyhood and I sympathize with them, however in the process their also destroying -many- forms of life as well as that lifes habitat. More importantly, their upsetting the delicate balance of this planets ecology. Does their immidiate need to provide for their familys give them the right to endanger us all? I'd have to say a firm -NO- to this. The needs of the many out way the needs of the few. Perhaps the line of thought here should be "look out for ones own self and ones species as long as it doesn't harm anyone...or anything else".

"Travelling across the ocean! How dare we!!"...ok...tell me honestly...how would you feel if your source of communication to your family and friends was cut off virtually completely simply because another species felt the need to "move around" in a less then considerate way? Thats exactly what we're talking about here...being considerate to other species. If a fundamental way of life is simply cut off...a way you've known for a very very long time simply because someone else can't be considerate, would you not be angered by this? Would it not disturb your way of life? Let me use another of my famous analogies here....say you have new neighbors that play their stereo all night and day...you can't sleep, you can't talk to your family members and you can't get away from it. Add to this that these people somehow, by their own reasoning think they have the -right- to do this because they think their some how better then you or that your some how inferiour to them. Now as human's the first thing you would do is call the cops and complain right? You'd want -something- done about this menace to restore your peace and your way of living. It's wrong isn't it. This is exactly what we've done to the whales.

Also I would like to add that I would never detour efforts such as space travel. It is our ability to endear and overcome that allows us to achieve the great things that we have. However we must not allow ourselves as a species to become "cocky" because of our achievments and I sincerly believe that we must use these achievments as well as our intelligence to the benifit of all.

Gourdhead...
"By what criteria are they grander than ourselves? The fact that there are those among us capable of predicting their likely future (although they themselves are not) and willing to take heroic measures to help them and, other species in danger of extinction, avoid that fate is at least worthy of note. We are not omniscient, merely thoughtful and compasionate; may we remain so and get better at it as days go by". Ok, first and foremost, thankyou for pointing some of this out. As grim as the situation is, you are correct that there are -many- good souls that are trying to help and providing truly heroic efforts indeed and I agree that it is quite worthy of note...and I sincerly apolgize for not having said something earlier! None of my statements were meant to belittle these people at all. I think my point was, if we are so great and smart, the need to save these creatures should not have happened in the first place. The easiest way to "fix" a problem is to not create the problem at all. With that said, I would also like to add that first there is no real proof for or against the idea of them knowing what is happening to them....they may very well know their possible fate better then we do. As to the issue of them being grander then ourselves, I will begrudginly admit this is probably more of a personal statement however I honestly think that if I ever witnessed a pod of whales...particularly of blue or humpback, that I would feel very small and insignifigent while amounst these great beasts. I have no doubt that I would also be very guilt striken considering what humans have done to the wonderful, beautiful and peaceful creatures.

Also, on the issue of fossil fuels...I agree that for the moment they -are- needed, but what I'm saying here is simply that more effort needs to be put into developing alternative power sources and this effort isn't readily put forth or encouraged by our current leaders...particularly when one of the presidents families financial interests is oil (you think Bush is loosin money from these gas prices? Think again!). As far as extracting oil from Nature preserves...I think they -must- be left alone...thats why their preserves in the first place. Forgive me but I'm going to use another anology here...if you take a stone and throw it into a calm pool of water, it will create ripples in that water. Yes, the water will eventually come to be still again, but the stone is still underneath...the pool of water has been forever changed. What I'm saying is that there must be ways of living in harmony with the land and better ways of creating energy and we really need to explore those ways with a great deal more zest and vigor. People such as many of our current "leaders" are not going to be inclined to agressivly pursue these issues as long as they have people from the oil and coal industries (amounst others) slipping them cash for the weight of their opinions.

Soultra...
"I'm simply stating that in order for an animal to realize that there is something greater than they...they would have to be able to realize this. Which I guess is what makes us different form other species correct?" The question here is "would -we- realize it or even acknowledge it if we did?". Ok...I'm not talking indiviuals here, I'm talking our society as a whole....we still have the terrible tendancy to fear that which we do not understand. There is also still a belief that if we were to meet an extraterrestrial intelligence (who, if their here, is surely of greater intelligence then we are), especially if that ET was signifigantly different from us, that there would be folks that would want to "disect them and see what makes them work" or simply kill or destroy them before they have the chance to do the same to us. This is one reason why movies such as "Independance Day" and the "Alien(s)" series of flicks, etc., are so popular...they play on our irrational fears and show humans in triumph over such hostile advesaries. I would also like to very much add that again we really don't know that other species of this planet don't have "self awareness". Simply because they don't demonstrate it to us doesn't mean the trait doesn't exist...at least at some level. Take dogs for example and the infamous "pack mentality". Now my own personal views on this aside, through contest, play, and whatever methods come into this, each dog in a pack -knows- its place...they may occasionally need to be reminded, but each member of the pack knows the order of the pack. This applies to the way dogs relate with humans too. People who successfully raise dogs understand this as a method of training (i.e. learning). A person who is afraid of dogs is not going to have any success at training a dog because that animal will always be challanging them for "power" and the top dog position....dogs very much also understand respect and that respect is something that has to be earned (something we as humans often tend to forget).

Tom2Mars...
"Better to solve the problem with the long-term view in mind." My point exactly!!!! Ok... one of them at least! LOL! I really think there is this mentality amoung many people that it's better...or at least more economical, to try and aproach things from a live in the moment point of view without looking at the whole big picture. This is something I"ve encountered -many- times at different companies I've worked for. A wonderful example is a nationwide autoparts retailer I once worked for...the store I worked in had perpetual problems with the air conditioning. The AC units themselves were old, poorly maintained and under-powered for the size of our store...needless to say they were frequently breaking down. Now instead of replacing the old broken down units with modern ones that would have worked trouble free for years to come, the company chose to simply repair the old ones whenever they broke down at a cost that, over time, became signifigantly more then a new unit would have cost. Instead of paying $20,000 upfront to do the job right, the company chose to spend $1500 here, $3000 there, etc., not to mention the lost revenues whenever we had to close the store because it got literally so hot that cans of freon starting bursting on the shelves...all because it looked better on the books for the short term. Very bad thinking and investing indeed. If we must put a value on other species, perhaps we should look at it like this....instead of worrying about what they have to offer us now, maybe we should do our best to preserve all the life on our planet for the future...who knows maybe dolphins or whales or even ants will hold the key to cures for cancer! Perhaps a plant species that is currently being wiped out in a rain forest could hold the remidy for AIDS patients. If we -must- put a value on other forms of life on our planet, then maybe this is a good way to start.

Tinaa...
"Needless to say I think we must protect the animals. Mankind may be smarter but we certainly are not better. Taking care of the animals is part of taking care of Earth. Protect the gorillas, there are plenty of people." I raise my glass to you my friend...here here! I would like to expand that a little...no other species, exect for -possibly- the dinosaurs have even come remotly close to over-populating the planet as we have. As smart as we supposedly are, why do we have so much of a problem limiting our familys to two or three children? Again we really need to look at the big picture here and figure out a way to do something about it...and soon. I also whole-heartedly agree with your statement that we may be smarter, but we're certainly not better...that was another one of my points as well. As I said before, there are far greater things on this planet, not to mention in this universe far more important the intelligence.

Alrighty, that does it for me for the evening. My wifes sister is coming in from New York City tomorrow (first time we've seen her in almost 2 years) and we have a big day planned.

Bright Blessings & Gentle Breezes,
Jim

"Australian folklore about a donkey in Galipoli (world war 2)"

The landing at Galipoli was during World War Two. Turkey played no part in the Second World War.

Zephyr, re-Laika, the dog was the first animal in space, but did not return...

Laika in Space

The chimp Ham was next, and did return. Ham lived to the ripe old age of 41 and died a couple of years ago

lomitus1, thanks for the comments! And, re-The most recent building I've built uses an AC unit that is 6 times smaller than a conventional structure the same size would use. I'm adding a couple of extra features that will make it possible to Air Condition the building with a unit that is 8 times smaller than conventional. Construction costs are lower, and the structure exceeds building codes.

And, I know you mention your spelling ceativity, that's OK, but you might try to spell ASEI's name with A-S-E-I since it looks like you will probably be referring to him on a regular basis.

__________________
Pre-Quote: 'To survive one has to experiment. When the environment changes, the traditional way of doing things doesn't work.'

Quote:
"It's the outriders, the organisms that seem to be maladjusted before the change, which are the only ones that survive these changes...in that way a species continues."

Carl Sagan

Jim,

“I honestly don't think that too many animals on this planet have been hunted to extiction (sic).”

I can’t imagine on what basis you form this opinion. It seems quite likely that mammoths, and many other large manuals, were pushed to extinction by the Native Americans who arrived on the North and South American continents with the technology of the Clovis and Folsom fluted pro-jectile point. We know they hunted mammoth from the blades using this technology found in the bones of the fossils, and then the mammoths disappeared.

Not exactly cause and effect, but a believable scenario—maybe even an hypothesis--with lots of evidence supporting it. The First Americans may have taken only “what they –needed;” and they may have “had very great respect for the creatures that sustained them,” but that really can’t be known—there are no written records and deciphering the meanings of 10,000 year old petro-glyphs is far beyond our abilities. And they did, apparently, push these animals to extinction anyway.

I think the contribution of sports hunting to extinction is about zero. Hunters don’t want to deal with creatures that are so rare you can hardly find any. Today they deal primarily with deer and elk, nuisance animals who are very far from extinction.

Forget “Lo, the poor Indian.”

Bob