There seems to be a lot of similar and related information on this topic among the many diverse forums at UT, but I thought that I would begin this discussion to gather some of the best ideas that have been mentionned so far to this location. If you think that having this forum is folly because your food comes from supermarkets and not from farms, then this forum is not for you.

Some points for discussion, not necessarily in any order:

1) Small scale terraforming projects such as atrium style dwellings or greenhouses have a certain cost associated with transporting and constructing the building materials.

2) The variety of crops that can be grown successfully to produce large volumes of producce. There are at least a dozen crop plants that grow well in space of which tomatoes are the most promising. Some of the others are common species known as corn, wheat, potatoes, and salad greens. One observation is that the current research may be somewhat one-dimensional because it concentrates on Quaternary atmospheric conditions of the hydroponic mediums. The research could include some experiments in atmospheric conditions different than today. The growing of fern fronds, or else plants that would provide shade or micronutrients to benefit harvestable plants, acting in symbiotic intermediary relationships with one another in atmospheric conditions different than today. Also to be discussed is the ability to withstand radiation exposure: plants growing in regions on Earth of natural radioactivity such as the Great Slave Lake area may shed some useful information for the study of hydroponics in space, or of viable farms on Mars.

3) Machinery, or robots may be of use in maintaning/harvesting the crops.

4) Animal life. On Earth bumble bees are almost 100% employed in greenhouse tomato production. Are they able to fly in zero-G, or low gravity greenhouse environments on Mars? The study of astrobiology may play a role in observing the limits to which bacterial colonies can be manipulated to grow medicines or foods (such as penicillin, mint, etc.).

5) Micronutrients, soil requirements, etc. Can the soil on Mars support life or would it be in need of earthworms and nematodes to assist crop production? What about the dust material found in comets with the unique amino acids found in their soils?

6) Would we recongnize indigenous harvestable lifeforms on other planets if we found them?!

7) Perhaps there are other considerations to be presented on this the topic of "astro-agronomy". Survival of the human race in the space age will depend on continuing efforts to find innovative ways to feed ourselves.

Hi spacepunk

Nice topic

i just wanted to add an idea. for those of you who don't watch startrek, there is a device in there time called a replicator, it builds food or drink atom by atom.

if such a technology was developed it would eliminate the need for farms because waste could be turned into food by assembly rather then natural processes making things faster and eliminating need for huge amounts of space, money and hardware to build and run farms.

A Few Questions:

How do you think this would be done?

By when do you think it could be doen?

__________________
Challenging Limits

www.fullscap.com

www.howearthworks.com
www.climatechange.com.au

Let's maintain this list by having each modifier of the list copy the complete list and add items to include her ideas. Only the one who introduced the idea should delete it after being convinced that it no loner applies. Maintaining the food supply of our spacefaring neighbors is of paramount importance.

1) Small scale terraforming projects such as atrium style dwellings or greenhouses have a certain cost associated with transporting and constructing the building materials.

2) The variety of crops that can be grown successfully to produce large volumes of producce. There are at least a dozen crop plants that grow well in space of which tomatoes are the most promising. Some of the others are common species known as corn, wheat, potatoes, and salad greens. One observation is that the current research may be somewhat one-dimensional because it concentrates on Quaternary atmospheric conditions of the hydroponic mediums. The research could include some experiments in atmospheric conditions different than today. The growing of fern fronds, or else plants that would provide shade or micronutrients to benefit harvestable plants, acting in symbiotic intermediary relationships with one another in atmospheric conditions different than today. Also to be discussed is the ability to withstand radiation exposure: plants growing in regions on Earth of natural radioactivity such as the Great Slave Lake area may shed some useful information for the study of hydroponics in space, or of viable farms on Mars.

3) Machinery, or robots may be of use in maintaning/harvesting the crops.

4) Animal life. On Earth bumble bees are almost 100% employed in greenhouse tomato production. Are they able to fly in zero-G, or low gravity greenhouse environments on Mars? The study of astrobiology may play a role in observing the limits to which bacterial colonies can be manipulated to grow medicines or foods (such as penicillin, mint, etc.).

5) Micronutrients, soil requirements, etc. Can the soil on Mars support life or would it be in need of earthworms and nematodes to assist crop production? What about the dust material found in comets with the unique amino acids found in their soils?

6) Would we recongnize indigenous harvestable lifeforms on other planets if we found them?!

7) Perhaps there are other considerations to be presented on this the topic of "astro-agronomy". Survival of the human race in the space age will depend on continuing efforts to find innovative ways to feed ourselves.

8) Focus the efforts of genetic engineering to:
Develop microbial agents to directly produce "palatable" edibles.
Modifiy plants that depend on insects for polination to reduce such dependencies.
Select a set of plants that can be modified to supply a balanced set of nutrients.
Develop reversible miniturization of food animals for transportation/colonization.

9) Develop safe fungicides, anti-bacterial agents, anti-viral agents, and sanitation regimes to maintain the health of the food production areas.

Forget it.

__________________
For those inclined to oppose human meddling with the structure of the universe or the composition and configuration of objects and groups of objects within the universe, consider:
Whether there is a limit to the magnitude of a modulation of chaos below which order remains invariant? Or, is order but a fiction invented by perspectives applied over finite, however large, time intervals?

Hi Groundhead

Why, do you disagree with the idea?

__________________
Challenging Limits

www.fullscap.com

www.howearthworks.com
www.climatechange.com.au

Replicator technology as such would be ridiculously inefficient; it would take quadrillions of bits of information to replicate food to sufficient fidelity that it would not taste like garbage.

No, I have a better idea, based on speculative medical technology from a few years back- the tissue printer.

Imagine an inkjet printer which can be programmed to deposit cells of tissues in three dimensional shapes; this has been seriously proposed as a way of growing new organs for transplant, obviously with highly sophisticated printing equipment (not yet invented)...
After a few days or weeks the organ knits together and is ready for transplant.


Now imagine the same equipment growing joints of meat and rashers of bacon; even growing vegetables if necessary. In a nutrient bath this system could produce raw food to be cooked in the normal fashion.

__________________
Orion's Arm . The Starlark . Voices: Future Tense- Novella Contest Issue! . OA Flickr set

And if you have not heard of this already, here is a link to the sort
of thing I am talking about;
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,...d,118815,00.asp

__________________
Orion's Arm . The Starlark . Voices: Future Tense- Novella Contest Issue! . OA Flickr set

It's not that I disagre with the idea; I don't think it can be done efficiently, if at all. Quantum effects being as they are, including uncontrolable; the likelihood of getting a procuct out of the replicator, that is safe to eat, is vanishingly small.

__________________
For those inclined to oppose human meddling with the structure of the universe or the composition and configuration of objects and groups of objects within the universe, consider:
Whether there is a limit to the magnitude of a modulation of chaos below which order remains invariant? Or, is order but a fiction invented by perspectives applied over finite, however large, time intervals?

All though I agree with you, Its worth mentioning here that a great deal of our discoveries or inventions have come from compleatly unrealated reserch. samples of this are the air conditioner, which came from the fridge which came from a heat pump. all by stumbling around in the dark. History is full of this sort of thing. Have a little more confidance. We might be able to replicate food that tasts just like you would want it to. We can irradiat food to eliminate backterea. we can geneticly enginer plants to be what they were not.I would think its only time that stands between us and replicating food and other items. While we are at it lets engage the idea of transporters.... no lets not. The thought of scrambling my brain any more is alarming.

If we are serious about living in the outer solar system, we will need to grow food out there, in the dimly lit outer reaches. We could construct vast mirrors to collect sunlight for crops, or grow them in closed habitats using sunlamps powered by fusion or magnetic energy collection.
I have made a 3d model of a closed cylindrical habitat;
here is the image
http://tinypic.com/14pd92

this habitat collects energy from the magnetic field of a gas giant
such as Jupiter, and has a cylindrical landscape inside like Arthur
Clarke's Rama or like one of Peter Hamilton's Edenist orbital
habitats, lit by sunlamps or sunstrips;

there ain't no such thing as a free lunch, of course, and habitats
like this have to recieve periodical orbital boosts or they fall
into the gas giant through magnetic friction. But the bigger they are, the more energy they can collect before reorbiting.


I think a lot of outer solar system food will be derived from genetically tailored algae grown in vats, which probably won't even need centrifugal gravity or very bright light to thrive.

__________________
Orion's Arm . The Starlark . Voices: Future Tense- Novella Contest Issue! . OA Flickr set

We can beam energy from near the sun, say inside Mercury's orbit, to support veggies and steak factories out into and beyond where the Oort cloud is thought to be. I'm thinking 10^18 watt units delivering 10^17 watts over 5 light year distances. If this be true, we can live in suitably constructed cocoons all the way to Alpha Centauri.

__________________
For those inclined to oppose human meddling with the structure of the universe or the composition and configuration of objects and groups of objects within the universe, consider:
Whether there is a limit to the magnitude of a modulation of chaos below which order remains invariant? Or, is order but a fiction invented by perspectives applied over finite, however large, time intervals?

Good thinking! I call these rays of collimated sunlight 'sunbeams', by the way;

however they will need to be remarkably coherent to reach distant Oort objects.

Many descriptions of rotating habitats show the lghting strip as being suspended in the centre of the habitat; this would make maintenance of the sunstrip difficult, and a simpler arrangement could be adopted (as here);
http://tinypic.com/1593wy

__________________
Orion's Arm . The Starlark . Voices: Future Tense- Novella Contest Issue! . OA Flickr set

Some interesting ideas posted. Looks like the "Replicator" won't be on the market for a few years yet, but the 10-cup coffee maker will do just fine for now. Here's a redesigned discussion list with websites to be added ... some have been "borrowed" from other postings/forums at UT

1) Small scale terraforming, creation of micro-environments
http://www.geocities.com/alt_cosmos/
http://tinypic.com/1593wy
http://tinypic.com/14pd92

2) Variety of crops/plants

3) Variety of animals

4) Variety of yeasts, fungi

5) Variety of bacteria (study of astrobiology)

6) Machinery and robots
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,...d,118815,00.asp

7) Quality of soils, micronutrients, hydroponic mediums

8) Harvesting indigenous (alien) lifeforms

9) Genetic engineering of lifeforms

10) Proper sanitation techniques

11) Energy sources

12) Paleo-biologists/botanists to study what lifeforms may be promising

12) Other .............

These concepts will tend to overlap. For instance, some mushroom farms on Earth cultivate this high protein food in near-zero O2, high CO2 environments with the technicians wearing oxygen masks (sounds non-Quaternary atmosphere to me). The first few bio-spheres on Mars could just be simple inflatable dwellings that are initially filled with Mars' own CO2 atmosphere via the use of air compressors. After many successive generations of O2 producing plants there might be enough air pressure with breathable air for humans to breathe unassisted --- in that containment area. I don't know if astronauts can survive on eating just mushrooms, but all new greenhouses on Mars could start with an otherwise toxic atmosphere and progress to one favored by humans.

There are several bathyl oceanic life communities on Earth that make use of chemo-respiration and/or thermo-respiration. Tube worms to lobster-like animals that feed off bacteria that eat at the sulphur, or iron, or other chemicals spewed from hydrothermal vents. Presumably one could create underground brine cisterns on Mars to cultivate bacterial slime masses, or algeal mats for consumption by another lifeform that could be eaten by humans. Non-sulphuros brine would be best though unless one likes the smell of rotten eggs when eating. On moons (of Jupiter or saturn) which are surface frozen waterworlds there may be simple unevolved indigenous bacterial life. Perhaps it could be harvested by the introduction of bacteria eating organisms from Earth, to be eaten by introduced fish, to be eaten by people. Some ethical questions to sort out though, and certainly any space food coming back to Earth would want to be sufficiently irradiated so as not to introduce alien lifeforms to Earth!

Energy sources: data on methane sources on Mars (being either of biological or geochemical origin) could be examined by geological experts from the oil companies to see if there is enough volume to justify methane collection as a fuel for either propulsion or heat generation for colonists. Is magnetic energy collection from Jupiter possible by dangling cables down into its atmosphere ... ?

Generation of magnetic power from Jupiter could take many forms, but any extraction of power takes energy out of the system;
this usually means your power collection vessel will gradualy lose orbital velocity and enter the gas giant's atmosphere.
One way to avoid that is to anchor your power generator on one of the inner moons (ike Amalthea);
you will still slow the moon down, but it is so massive you would hardly make any difference.

__________________
Orion's Arm . The Starlark . Voices: Future Tense- Novella Contest Issue! . OA Flickr set

What about the lack of an ozone layer or Van Allen belt/magnetic field on the terrestrial planets and moons?

It's probably simple to make a greenhouse that filters out the UV in greenhouses so that the amount of UV is compatible to that which reaches earth's surface.

But what about the solar winds and powerful cosmic rays? Ozone doesn't filter out charged particles that can fry us. Seems to me that even in a fully oxygenated Martian atmosphere (with upper atmosphere ozone, of course), the lack of a magnetic field (and hence lack of radiation belts) to deflect all that ionizing radiation will make Mars perpetually hostile for humans.

Any ideas as to overcome that , unless we want to live perpetuall

I've made a model of an agricultural space station, adapted from Gerard O'Neill's island three design;
the mirror cone can be extended and modified in shape in order to collect more light- this would enable crops to be grown in
Jupiter orbit and beyond.

http://tinypic.com/1825o6

__________________
Orion's Arm . The Starlark . Voices: Future Tense- Novella Contest Issue! . OA Flickr set

Having an internet search on "Gerard O'Neill's island three design" gives webpages from hordes of armchair space engineers, but also credible information from respectable sources!

Would anyone like to comment on what you think would be the minimum /maximum sizes for the viability of space stations? Are these or any structures self-sufficient for (most) energy requirements and would they necessarily have a permanent human presence, or just at harvesting intervals? Any proposed stats on dimensions, wattage, biomass capacity, population ...
http://tinypic.com/1825o6

There is a static/remnant magnetic field on Mars, most prominent at the South Pole. Its strength at the surface probably compares to that as would be found by the ISS when it drifts through the Earth's Van Allen's belts (haven't found the actual stats that state this) Lead-containing glass could aid the filtering of undesirable solar/cosmic radiation into greenhouses.

Some interesting sites:

health issues in space
methane on mars
radiation shield
Mars magnetic field

The answer is that you make them as big as you can; it was demonstrated by the failure of the Biosphere Two experiment that creating a small self contained ecosystem is very difficult. What should be remembered is that the atmoshere of Earth is a couple of magnitudes bigger than the biosphere in mass; so it will stay pretty much the same in the short term when the biosphere stops producing oxygen, which is why we don't asphyxiate in winter.
You need a big artificial biosphere to cut down the amount of biosphere management you need to do to avoid killing off all your food crops.

__________________
Orion's Arm . The Starlark . Voices: Future Tense- Novella Contest Issue! . OA Flickr set

A huge portion of the Earth's biosphere is actively producing molecular oxygen throughout the year. I agree that the massiveness of the biosphere is a strong plus. We will have to get by on a much smaller scale and that will require more detailed monitoring and corrective measures being taken in a timely manner. We can do it!!

__________________
For those inclined to oppose human meddling with the structure of the universe or the composition and configuration of objects and groups of objects within the universe, consider:
Whether there is a limit to the magnitude of a modulation of chaos below which order remains invariant? Or, is order but a fiction invented by perspectives applied over finite, however large, time intervals?

I don't like the idea of 3-4 years worth of ecological advancement within the biosphere being at risk of complete failure due to a sudden computer malfunction that we, here on earth, are not able to fix in time. It seems risky that at any moment during the entire project that their wouldn't be some kind of safe guard against this that would atleast dampen the horrid thought of all that progress and