Greetings,

I've failed to achieve any real success when posting the request below on a couple of UFO discussion Lists. Since those Lists appeared to have rather limited participation by skeptics, I thought I'd try my luck here.

Kind Regards,

Isaac Koi


"Only idiots believe in UFOs"

The view that "only idiots believe in UFOs" (or variations thereon, such as "only nutters report UFOs" or "only idiots bother investigating UFO reports) is one that I've heard friends and colleagues express.

It is also one that has been implicit in quite a few recent press articles in the UK, including the articles at the following links:

http://tinyurl.com/8dtwe

http://tinyurl.com/8z2v5

http://tinyurl.com/dtwd9

I don't believe that I can be alone in hearing such dismissive views being expressed.

However, despite a fair bit of effort, I have not found any explicit statements of such views by any sceptics or media commentator of any note.

Indeed, quite the contrary.

For example, despite a suggestion that Philip J Klass has made such comments , in fact Klass makes the following comment in his "UFOs Explained" (in the Introduction):

"Some skeptics dismiss the UFO question without investigation in the belief that reports come only from 'kooks'. This is not so, as numerous UFO cases analyzed in this book will demonstrate. Many come from seemingly honest, intelligent and often well-educated citizens, including scientists, law-enforcement officers and aircraft flight crews."

Similarly, the Condon Report (which, to put it mildly, is not generally considered to be biased in favour of ETH proponents) includes a section by Aldora Lee on opinion polls relating to UFOs. That section suggests that in fact there is some evidence that the _greater_ their education, the _more_ likely people are to think that flying saucers are "real". Page 320 of the version of the Condon Report available online at the link below includes the following: "Although the relationships are not strong, the results of the 1966 Gallup poll suggest that education is related to opinions. The greater the education, the higher the proportion who indicated they have heard of flying saucers, who think they are real rather than the product of imagination and who believe that there are people somewhat like ourselves living on other planets." See:

http://ncas.sawco.com/condon/text/s3chap07.htm

So, whilst it seems that everyone agrees that some skeptics and/or members of the public think UFO reports only come from idiots/kooks, I'm still looking for an explicit quotation to this effect by any prominent individual. About the closest I've found is in an article by Bruce Maccabee (at the link below) which quotes the editor of a magazine called "Applied Optics" referring to "UFO believers" as "99 and 44/100ths percent kooks." See:

http://www.stardrive.org/maccabee.shtml

I'm currently planning on writing more on this topic and am attempting to find a few pithy quotations which explicitly express such dismissive views of UFO witnesses/believers generally.

I've read a couple of dozen books by UFO skeptics (e.g. Klass, Oberg, Condon, Sheaffer, Menzel and others) plus more general books on skepticism generally (e.g. by Gardner, Sagan and others) as well, of course, as "Bad Astronomy" - but not had any joy finding such quotations.

I'd welcome any references, suggestions or recommendations anyone has.

Any thoughts?

All the best,

Isaac Koi

One famous example is Jimmy Carter. Nevermind your opinion of his presidency or his politics, I think there is no doubt about him being a "honest, intelligent and often well-educated citizen". However, it's an almost certainty that the UFO that he reported was actually the planet Venus.
I'm skeptical

With such a famous example, most researchers and commentators would not put such a comment down on paper, because they know it to be wrong. You may be attacking a straw man, so to speak.

PS: btw, you can delete your duplicate post when you first post it, in edit, just by clicking the delete button

I'd draw a distinction between people who see something they can't identify and people who leap to the conclusion that they've seen an alien spacecraft. It's the latter group who are, at the least, lacking in critical judgement.

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Hi hhEb09'1 (easier to type that than pronounce it...),

Not all skeptics (and by that term I include members of the public and press that dismiss UFO reports and witnesses, without necessarily having read any of the relevant literature are familiar with the Carter example.

(I presume you've read one of Sheaffer's books, in which puts he investigates the case in some depth and puts forward the Venus explanation, or some other source relating to it).

As I said, I've heard such examples expressed by friends. In response to my email, members of other forums have also said they've encountered such views. Also, both a "believer" (Hynek) and a skeptic (Klass) have written in their respective books that:
(a) that some people believe that all UFO witnesses/investigators are "idiots" (or a similar term);
(b) that such a view does not reflect the variety of UFO witnesses.

I'm interested in showing that there is some common ground between the more rational "believers" (i.e. pro-ETHers) and the more informed skeptics. So, the first step in addressing such misconceptions is to find some of the most extreme examples of misconceptions which some members of the public appear to suffer from.

I hope this clarifies why I'm interested in finding such statements (whether in books, or in newspaper editorials or on TV), even if more informed skeptics may not expressed them.

Kind Regards,

Isaac

PS I tried editing my duplicate post and was able to remove the text, but still can't see a "delete" button. I think I might have spent too long in the office today...

No sensible person, sceptic or otherwise, would express the thought 'only idiots believe in UFOs'.
UFOs exist; any unidentified object apparently moving within the atmosphere is a UFO.
What is in doubt is the explanation for some of these objects; the so-called Extraterrestrial Hypothesis being one explanation which is open to doubt.

So what you want really is a quote stating 'believers in the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis are kooks' or something similar; you might have a little more luck there.

A true sceptic would allow for the possibility that the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis (ETH) is correct for some sightings, or perhaps that the ETH will become true at some future date. But there is not yet enough evidence to justify a belief in that hypothesis; there may never be.

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I've no doubt that there have been such views expressed. However, as your research shows, those're probably expressions to goad or anger people, rather than reasoned opinions. If you were to respond to them, you probably would not be engaged in a constructive conversation.

Obviously, not all UFO witnessesses are crackpots. However, I have never found a UFO investigator who behaved in a strictly scientific [rational] manner. My impression about these investigators is that they all seem to be in search of anything that can corroborate their fantastic views and/or personal agendas. ["gentlemen, these are the opinions on which I base my facts".]

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Hi Eburacum45,

Well, some of the friends and colleagues I've heard express such views have first class honours degrees in law from Oxford and Cambridge. I'm fairly sure that each of them would object to any implication that he is not a "sensible person"...

Those friends and colleagues have no interest in UFOs and almost certainly have never heard of the term "Extraterrestrial Hypothesis" (or, even more certainly, its abbreviation "the ETH") - they simply use the term "UFO".

Of course, complaints about the fact that many people equate the phrase "UFOs" with "Alien Spaceships" are very common, and not just from supporters of the ETH.

Quite a few skeptics have also complained about this confusion.

See, for example, the following article on the SkepticFriends website:

http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/...q=6&fldAuto=41

I've seen quite a few examples of this confusion in the messages on this very forum.

One of the longest threads in this forum is a poll that asks whether you "believe" in "UFO's". Putting any complaint to one side about the apostrophe in "UFO's", in that short question you have:
(1) the term "UFO" used as if it meant the same thing as "Alien spaceships in the Earth's atmosphere" and
(2) the term "believe" used when I suppose the real question is "do you consider that the evidence indicates on the balance of probabilities that ...".

You don't want to get me started on the terminology used within Ufology. I'm a barrister and have a limited tolerance for the often sloppy language used in this field.

Take, for example, the label "skeptic". The term "skeptic" is often used by those that support the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis ("ETH", i.e. that UFOs are probably piloted by extraterrestrials) as a term of abuse. The willingness of the pro-ETHers to label their opposition as "skeptics" implies to bystanders that:
(a) they do not regard themselves as "skeptics" and
(b) that they consider skepticism a bad thing.

However, many of the pro-ETHers would be insulted by any implication that their beliefs and methodology do not conform to a reasonably accurate definition of skepticism.

Any neutral bystander is going to have considerable sympathy for a group of people who _both_ sides describe in terms which (at least to those not submerged in the UFO subculture) are positive terms.

It's almost as if the pro-ETHers agreed that their opponents should be called "The Good Guys"!

I told you that you didn't want to get me started about the terminology used...

Kind Regards,

Isaac Koi

Much of the UFO interest these days is a fascination with abduction and conspiracy, most of which sounds pretty loony to me. If you believe that millions of Americans have been abducted, over and over again, even from city apartments...well.. don't let anybody try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.

Howver, the idea that Earth is being monitored by an alien intelligence, and that we occasionaly see their craft navigating our atmosphere, that is not so preposterous. It could be.

We don't have any proof, of course, but it could be.

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Possible? Yes. Only because there's no proof. Probable? Not given our understanding of science. Preposterous? in my opinion, yes.

I draw definite lines between the possibilities of there being ET, and being visited.

I for one do not believe in alien visitation or flying saucers. I do however know that there are UFO's up there. 'Unidentified Flying Objects'. I'm sure there are rational explanations for any UFO, but it is a term that people have linked to extra terrestrial life forms without rhyme or reason for many decades now. UFO sightings have included Venus, government spy planes, satellites etc, but never extraterrestrials thus far!

As we are a scientific bunch, then I think that we should also try and be correct in our terminology. 'Only idiots believe in UFO's'? Well you can call me an idiot then, as there are UFO's, just not aliens flying them as far as I'm concerned! Its not a great title for the thread and could be misleading.

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Hi

The title of this thread refers to the fact that I've _heard_ people say "Only idiots believe in UFOs" (as explained in my original post).

I'm not advancing the statement "Only idiots believe in UFOs" as a proposition.

Indeed, my original post gave several bits of evidence against the substance of any such statement (without even bothering to take issue with the sloppy use of terminology in such statements).

Kind Regards,

Isaac Koi

Unfortunately (at least for me, so I'm sure there are some others), the message you are conveying in your post is unclear.

So, before I start taking issue with something... Can you give a brief (one or two sentences) to summarize what you're saying or what your goal here is?

Hi NeoWatcher.

Sure.

As I said in my original email, I've heard people say things along the lines of "Only idiots believe in UFOs" but I have not found any _explicit_ statements of such views by any sceptics or media commentators of any note.

My goal, as stated, was to find "a few pithy quotations which explicitly express such dismissive views of UFO witnesses/believers generally".

As for the reasons for seeking such quotations, I'm interested in showing that there is some common ground between the more rational "believers" (i.e. pro-ETHers) and the less extreme skeptics.

Both a "believer" (Hynek) and a skeptic (Klass) have said:
(a) that some people believe that all those that report UFOs are "idiots" (or a similar term);
(b) that such a view does not reflect the variety of those that submit UFO reports.

There are other similar misconceptions which some members of the public appear to suffer from, including similar dismissive views of _all_ those that are pro-ETH and/or _all_ those that consider UFO reports worth investigating for one reason or another.

So, the first step in addressing such misconceptions is to find some of the most extreme examples of expressions of these views.

I hope this clarifies why I'm interested in finding such quotations.

Kind Regards,

Isaac Koi

Are you saying then, that you allow ET "out there" somewhere, just not here, not now, not ever?

Anthropic reasoning applied to Inflation Theory (BBT) predicts the earth is within a galactic civilization, according to our understanding of Science.

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Hello Isaac.

I've personally heard people say such things as "only idiots" believe, but then I live in the rural Kentucky bible belt.

But as far as high profile people being quoted saying such things, I'm afraid I can't offer anything of substance.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

In summary my opinion says ET may be out there somewhere, but the odds of them even seeing us are extremely unlikely, and the cat and mouse appearances are even more unlikely.
I think that high profile people are much more careful in what they say about others. So; how would you know they are not thinking "idiot" when they say something a lot more tactful?

I see; thanks for clarifying.

What comes to mind is an adage about "...sufficiently advanced technology" being "indistinguishable from magic," but OK.

Good point; usually I don't care and react to words as spoken, or written. However, I'd have to say high profile or not, anyone moderately well read will often pickup on conversational nuances, ya know?

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

If every human being on the face of planet Earth were to make out a "what I believe in" list, what number of items do you think would be highlighted, and therefore, categorized as "idiotic" thinking...........and who would be the judge ( brilliant minded ) of those things listed??..........

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Hi A.Dim,

Thanks at least for the confirmation that I am not alone in hearing such things. (I didn't really think that I was, given comments by Klass and Sagan about some skeptics making such statements).

Some skeptics have suggested that the reason I'm having difficulty finding quotes of specific high profile people making such remarks is quite simply because no-one would say such a thing and that there isn't such ridicule of UFO witnesses/"believers".

In the words of Dr Mabuse on the Skeptic Friends forum, "the ridicule is in the eye of the beholder".

All the best,

Isaac

Hi NEOWatcher,

It's quite possible that one reason for the difficulty I'm having in finding specific quotations (which has been shared by others, given that I've raised this question on several other Forums) is that people tend to be more careful when making such statements in a high profile manner (e.g. on TV or in newspapers) out of concern about potential libel proceedings.

All the best,

Isaac

Could be...I never gave any "whys". There are many valid reasons for being tactful, and that certainly is one of them.
I also think that someone doesn't get high profile (in a good way) unless they are already tactful.

True.

In addition to concerns about libel and for the feelings of those involved, a further reason is that it is simply counterproductive to the goal of some skeptics of getting a certain message across.

As Carl Sagan's “The Demon Haunted World” (1997) at page 282 (in Chapter 17) of the Headline softcover edition:

"… the chief deficiency I see in the skeptical movement is in its polarization: Us vs. Them - the sense that we [skeptics] have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons; that if you're sensible, you'll listen to us; and if not, you're beyond redemption. This is unconstructive. It does not get the message across."

(With thanks to "Gorgo" of the Skeptics Friends for putting me on the trail of that quote).

Kind Regards,

Isaac

Sigh. It's a long-term fad. Little more.

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Bump: Sorry, I just think it's funny to have a thread titled 'Only idiots believe in UFOs' right next to one asking if we believe in UFO's. I apologize...a little, yuck yuck.

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As well as being an amature astronomer I'm also a Birder. I see UFO's all the time and I'm not an idiot :P

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I don't believe in "UFOs" but people who do don't deserve to be called idiots.

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Amazing still, how almost all civilizations of almost every age have some depictions of beings in the sky... is our understanding so much more than theirs back in the day, that we have to deny there is other life...

Geesh... lets all not forget... the world was once flat too...

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This has been discussed repeatedly here, this is a very recent thread:

Alien Society.

The upshot: It isn't a question of denying anything. The issue is the lack of solid physical evidence for ET or ETI. We have depictions of all sorts of things, modern and otherwise. That just proves humans have imagination. I happen to like science fiction and fantasy. That doesn't mean I believe there must be some reality behind every story I read.

I accept the possibility of ET. There isn't much point in going further than that until, and if, we get evidence.

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I agree. However, "just as the world was once flat" it doesn't mean the evidence is not there. It is just beyond our means to get it. We have only broadened our technology over the last 50 years... our means of measuring, researching or detecting any evidence of beings, with possibly thousands of years of development, is in its infancy.

Please don't try to tell me that with all historical depictions, that every human has had the same fantasy and imagination about the same subject.

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