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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 01-July-2006, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToSeek
I want to argue with this statement from the article:
Quote:
Under zero-pressure conditions, water ice will sublimate (transform from solid
to vapor directly) at temperatures higher than about 170 K (-103 °C).
This means that water-rich protoplanets must form relatively far from the star --
well outside the traditional “habitable zone” where stellar radiation raises
temperatures high enough to support liquid water.
This excluded big enough moons with protective layer of atmosphere,
and with strong enough gravity field to hold the water on the "protoplanet" (moon).

As we have calculated earlier, Gas Planet moons might be as massive as the Earth
and even more then that, based on 1/4000 ratio.

This means that habitable moons exist even in zones closer to the central star,
and many gas giant planets discovered around stars are in fact close to the star.

Then again, there must be a star/gas giant mass ratio.

Thus, we have 2 ratios, one is Star/Gas giant planet ratio,
and second is Gas giant planet/Moon ratio.

The bigger the star, the bigger the Gas giant planet around it...
But, the bigger the star, the brighter it is...
The brighter the star is, the warmer the moon around the gas planet is...

So, on one hand, the bigger the Gas giant planet is,
the bigger the moon is, thus more chance of preserving the water,
but at the same time it means warmer star...

It means there is a habitable zone for Gas giant planet moons
where they can keep their water on the moon long enought
for intelligent life to evolve.

The colder the star, the closer to the star Gas planet and its moon have to be,
and they will be smaller in mass, and on other hand,
the hotter the star, the further from the star Gas planet and its moon have tio be,
and they will be heavier in this case.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 01-July-2006, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homo_cosmosicus
I want to argue with this statement from the article:

Quote:
Under zero-pressure conditions, water ice will sublimate (transform from solid to vapor directly) at temperatures higher than about 170 K (-103 °C). This means that water-rich protoplanets must form relatively far from the star -- well outside the traditional “habitable zone” where stellar radiation raises temperatures high enough to support liquid water.
This excluded big enough moons with protective layer of atmosphere, and with strong enough gravity field to hold the water on the "protoplanet" (moon).
How does it exclude moons with atmospheres if it's about body formation, protoplanets, that have neither atmospheres nor strong gravity?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 02-July-2006, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01101001
How does it exclude moons with atmospheres if it's about body formation,
protoplanets, that have neither atmospheres nor strong gravity?

01,

Here is the quote agaiN:
Under zero-pressure conditions, water ice will sublimate (transform from solid
to vapor directly) at temperatures higher than about 170 K (-103 °C).


"zero-pressure conditions" - means no atmosphere around the "protoplanet",
and "protoplanet" seems to be moon of the Gas giant planet.

Author excludes, in advance, all the moons with atmosphere.
But we have the example of moons with atmosphere even in our star system,
like Titan with a significant atmosphere.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 02-July-2006, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homo_cosmosicus

Here is the quote agaiN:
Under zero-pressure conditions, water ice will sublimate (transform from solid
to vapor directly) at temperatures higher than about 170 K (-103 °C).
Fine. Repeat the statment all you want. It is about formation. Formation. Here is what you need to explain, again: What is it about the statement about formation that excludes moons that now have atmopsheres?

Quote:
Originally Posted by homo_cosmosicus
"zero-pressure conditions" - means no atmosphere around the "protoplanet",
and "protoplanet" seems to be moon of the Gas giant planet.
Do you know what a protoplanet is?

Tell me how much atmosphere proto-Titan had when it began forming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by homo_cosmosicus
Author excludes, in advance, all the moons with atmosphere.
False.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 22-July-2006, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by publiusr
Not if it has been blown away by supernovae or other forces.

The idea of dead worlds orbiting in the dark smacks of HPL.
HPL? (could not find it on google)
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 23-July-2006, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snabald
HPL? (could not find it on google)
Howard Phillips Lovecraft. The greatest horror writer who ever lived.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 23-July-2006, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
As we have calculated earlier, Gas Planet moons might be as massive as the Earth
and even more then that, based on 1/4000 ratio.
Er... given a 1/4000 ratio, only a tiny fraction of gas giants will have an earth-massed moon: to be precise, only gas giants with masses larger than 12.6 Jupiter masses will have them (remember, 13 Jupiter masses and you have a brown dwarf)...

And 01101001 is right: "zero-pressure conditions" refers to the pressure in the protoplanetary disc. Pressure is not "zero" in this disc, true, but it is very low, and assuming its "zero" is completely valid. The line within the disc that devides the "dry" inner part and the "wet" outer part (defined by this 170 K figure) is called the "Snow Line". Within the snow line, no planetary object forming there can have large amounts of ice in it, unless it is brought in from outside (e.g., through deflection by a large gas giant in the outer reaches of the planetary system).
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 27-July-2006, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno
It's a fascinating thought. What would our culture be like if we evolved on a satellite to a gas giant?
Well for one thing if the satellite is tidally locked, the "days" would be very complicated. In fact I doubt if you would really have "days", the primary planet would sit there in the middle of the sky all the time...what would happen to our circadian rhythms? How would we measure time?

Still, the sky would show all kinds of fascinating displays with the other moons circling in & out. I think life would be very different in a world without a big hot sun like ours. (Sunblock manufacturers wouldn't do well. However, radiation blockers would do great!)
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 14-August-2006, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenfeather View Post
In fact I doubt if you would really have "days", the primary planet would sit there in the middle of the sky all the time...what would happen to our circadian rhythms? How would we measure time?
Circadian rhythms would not have evolved at all, at least not as synchronous with any celestial event. Likely there would still be some sort of rhythmicity, but it would be coordinated with physiology instead.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 18-August-2006, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parallaxicality View Post
Man, the religions of a planet with a sky like that would be something to behold. I think I would get vertigo just looking at such a sky. Natural philosophy would be kickstarted handily in such an environment; the people's wonder at their cosmos would be far greater than our own.
I just re-read Clarke's 2010. The last few pages are about the mythology and science of the Europans and about what the sky looks like to them. Best pages of the book.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 18-August-2006, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASEI View Post
It might be uninhabitable to normal earthlike life. But intense radiation doesn't have to kill everything, esp if the cells divide fast enough, or keep their genetic instructions in many smaller self-sufficient units.
I like that. We think everything in the universe will be just like us. But maybe our version of multicellular life is only one solution. Who knows what arrangements have evolved elsewhere that might be able to cope with what we consider uninhabitable.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 18-August-2006, 03:04 AM
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In the world of nitpicking, aren't all moons exoplanet in order to be classified as moons?
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 18-August-2006, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenfeather View Post
We think everything in the universe will be just like us.
Speak for yourself...
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 21-August-2006, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Do you know what a protoplanet is?

Tell me how much atmosphere proto-Titan had when it began forming.
Between the outgassing and the infalling matter, it's not difficult to imagine that these processes might have greater influence on an atmosphere's pressure than the sun burning it off for awhile. Furthermore, the gravitational field of the forming gas giant should also make the protoplanetary medium denser around moons as well.

Furthermore, with enough water, sublimation would create an atmosphere which would allow the rest to merely liquify.
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