In the simplest metazoan animal, say a hydrazoan, the animal makes a whole body response as an individual away from a stimuli, this must imply some sort of consciousness as a result of the nervous system behaviour.

A plant does have a hormone signalling system that allows the individual to make response to stimuli that only part of the plant can detect, such as change growth mode in response to the season. Maybe this has the same effect...

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plenty of woo, at the hotel hoagaland...

I feel I must "revise" myself a little...

There is absolutely no reason that consciousness can not be discussed on this, a science board...

However...

It's when you take that discussion and "stray off" into the "spiritual" that you're likely to run into trouble.

I understand the unfortunate baggage that is related to using the term spiritual. Perhaps we can begin to think of discussing consciousness as a "metaphysical force" such as in the dictionary description of metaphysical as an adjective being
"without material form or substance".

I think we can agree that the mind and our thoughts are "without material form or substance". And yet the expression of the mind and our thoughts shapes everything we accomplish in the material world. So the metaphysical and material are one and are intimately connected.

Then we could contemplate how a non material force arises from a material reality. That is the beginning of acceptance of a transcendent reality ... you don't have to put the label spiritual on it ... in fact you could start with just calling it the reality of the mind and consciousness itself ..

It is just as real as our material reality ... but invisible .. but pretty hard to dismiss as non existent. This is what I mean when I say we ourselves are proof of a transcendent reality.
Our minds and powers of our consciousness are proof ... they are beyond the powers of nature and the material reality.

Actually, it's quite easy to dismiss as nonexistent, as there's no evidence for it whatsoever.

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
Illuminati's Razor-The most complicatedly evil answer is usually the most correct answer. - Fazor
"Every book is a children's book if the kid can read." - Mitch Hedberg
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

Please show evidence that there is a difference between "without material form or substance", and "does not exist".

To get "nit-picky" for a moment, thoughts are simply electrical impulses moving in the chemical "sponge" of the brain. Sure sounds like there is "form and substance" to me.

You can keep saying the same thing (and you are), but unless you are going to present evidence for this "so called" connection, then this conversation is just about over.

No, but if your going to believe in a "religious type" manner, (ie. without evidence) then short of calling it religion, the "label" spiritual will suffice for this discussion.

Really??...I don't find it hard to dismiss at all...

As I've said, you keep repeating basically the same thing, yet you cannot demonstrate that anything you've said has any basis in reality at all.

There's no evidence you have a mind? .....

Ther's no evidence that my mind has a "non-physical" aspect.

There's plenty of evidence that the ability to think is based on the functions of the brain. No need to invoke "metaphysics".

__________________
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
Illuminati's Razor-The most complicatedly evil answer is usually the most correct answer. - Fazor
"Every book is a children's book if the kid can read." - Mitch Hedberg
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

Quote: "To get "nit-picky" for a moment, thoughts are simply electrical impulses moving in the chemical "sponge" of the brain. Sure sounds like there is "form and substance" to me." End Quote ..

Perhaps you could catch one of these thoughts and analyze it for us under a microscope ...

They have indeed been observed and analyzed, by EEG's, MRI's, and various other medical technologies. When we think, the active areas of the brain can be monitored, measured and recorded.

__________________
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
Illuminati's Razor-The most complicatedly evil answer is usually the most correct answer. - Fazor
"Every book is a children's book if the kid can read." - Mitch Hedberg
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

These are effects of consciousness acting through the mind on the body ... it is not consciousness itself or thoughts either ...

And your evidence for this is...?

__________________
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
Illuminati's Razor-The most complicatedly evil answer is usually the most correct answer. - Fazor
"Every book is a children's book if the kid can read." - Mitch Hedberg
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

Sarcasm?? Are you sure that is how you want to proceed??

How is one to evaluate such a meaningless statement??

...and you haven't (responded to) my previous post...

...and also...

Please take the time to answer these inquiries.

Well if you believe your mind is just a result of random electrical impulses my logic will not make sense to you ...

Others may be intrigued however .... or not ...

Consciousness is both objective in some sense and subjective in others ..

1. You haven't answered the question. As per BAUT Forum rules, if you make a claim it must be backed up by evidence or discarded; if you are asked a question, you must answer it.

2. At what point did I ever use the word "random"? Thought is the result of complex patterns of electrical impulses.

3. At no point have you used logic; you have simply made declarative statements. Again, the rules of the forum are quite clear on the matter, you must provide evidence to back up your declarations. This is a science forum, not an Intriguing Unprovable Statement forum.

__________________
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
Illuminati's Razor-The most complicatedly evil answer is usually the most correct answer. - Fazor
"Every book is a children's book if the kid can read." - Mitch Hedberg
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

And the discussion should be about what objective parameters can be placed on the term. "Consciousness" too is a pretty nebulous term. If a dozen people discuss it, there are probably twelve different ideas about what it sort of, kind of, might mean.

__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

No, we don't agree. I can say that the nervous system is capable of certain functions and actions that are objectively testable, and that damage to the nervous system has effects on those functions. People don't walk and talk without brains. They do show specific impairment with specific damage.

Sounds like my backyard elf claim. Invisible, undetectable, but how do you prove it doesn't exist? However, is that any reason to accept that it does?

__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Sorry, I should have included the rest of the question:

What is the specific, objective definition of "soul" and "spiritual world"?

I'm not seeing a discussion of science, but of personal belief, which is outside the boundaries of BAUT discussion.

__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

From the responses to the original question ... I would recommend that
BAUT ban any reference to anything other than totally objective physical reality ... and that would include any discussion of consciousness .. which it appears to me that the members and moderators of this board have already proved to themselves that it is only a result of the brain. Even this wrong assumption begs the question ... how does an infinitely more complex effect (the mind) arise from a lesser material reality (the brain).
Cheers and good bye ...

Eric