Originally Posted by Daffy

How about speculation? As I say, the quantum effect needs some explanation.

Originally Posted by Daffy

I'll try to do this succinctly! And, please, physicists, be patient...I am a layman on this subject! (Takes a deep breath)

For anything to exist (and for us to discuss it), there have to be 3 links in the chain: the object, the signal (how we perceive it), and the observer. Quantum Theory says that all of existence pretty much sits on top of a sea of unmanifest potential realities---all of which are equally probable. So the question becomes, what eliminates all the infinite number of equally probable realities, and leaves the one that actually exists?

The object? Not even there. Same for the signal, and the observer. All are made up of the same unmanifest quanta. So what is it that can be part of the system, but not of it? The answer Von Neumann came up with was consciousness. All of reality being the sum total of all the point conscious perspectives in the universe.

So, in this model, all point conscious perspectives have to have existed since the Big Bang, and must continue on until the end. Or, in more metaphysical terms, The End. Otherwise the whole thing collapses like a cosmic soap bubble. I am told the equations back this notion up...or, at the least, do not refute it.

Layman's explanation. I am a lot more of an expert on Fender guitars!

Originally Posted by Noclevername

The observer-oriented "quantum effect" you're describing is itself a speculation. There's no evidence for it either, just logic and mathematics, IIRC.

Originally Posted by Michael Noonan

This is beautifully put, so that an ordinary person like me can understand some of it too. It would appear that quantum has many intuitive properties like being able to choose a preferred path or join to a great source of inspiration and strength through entanglement.

To put it in words:- we are unique single entities all potentially fully connected so that the walk through life is like walking through a hall of mirrors. So what you radiate outwards like joy, sadness, hope etc is reflected back at you from an infinity of possibilities.

When you hug a tree it doesn't communicate to you in ideas but you are connected to great strength growth and thus life in ways that defy explanation. A mother's bond with her child or the beautiful thoughts that flow when we hold the precious infant all flow and add to the sum of that life.

Yes it takes incredible mathematical precision to explore the particle possibilities but the ghost in the machine is intuitive and so consciousness is an awareness that by giving out what you wish to receive that same consciousness gets the opportunity to receive many fold the work those desired results. As with any human emotion the ones most desired by others are the ones most generously reflected back.

Originally Posted by Daffy

A rather beautiful description of the notion of karma! I like it.

Originally Posted by R.A.F.

Glad you like it, but it's not science, and this IS a science board.

...perhaps in BABBling or on another board...

Originally Posted by Daffy

I am confused. No evidence for it? I just stubbed my toe on my desk; that pretty well convinces me it is there.

Originally Posted by Noclevername

So, stubbing your toe is evidence of quantum indeterminacy?



Nope, I don't get that. It's evidence that your toe has pain receptors, furniture has mass, about transfer of momentum, and that there was a desk in your way. Beyond that, however....

Originally Posted by Daffy

It is evidence that something eliminated all the infinite possible realities and left only the one where my desk and toe collided.

It also indicates I am clumsy.

Originally Posted by Noclevername

And what evidence is there of "infinite" possible realities? I see only one reality here.

Originally Posted by Daffy

That's where we would have to understand the math.

Have you ever seen an atom? No, and neither has anyone else. Same thing.

Originally Posted by Noclevername

(bold mine)

Nope. Just large masses of them. But they aren't at all the same thing. There's vast amounts of physical evidence that atoms exis, they've been proven experimentally time and time again, and the existence of atoms is entirely consistent with all known observational data.

As I said before, math doesn't prove anything. It's a useful tool for manipulating known data, nothing more. Is there any experimental (not "thought experiments", which are an exercise of imagination, but actual scientific experiments) that show the existence of multiple unrealized realities?

Originally Posted by Daffy

So...the slowing of time as speed increases wasn't even a possibility until it was proven by experiments? Remember that notion (and many others) started off as mathematical equations.

You are arguing with standard quantum theory. I respectfully suggest that without equations to back that up, the burden of proof is on your side.

Originally Posted by Noclevername

Standard quantum theory (IIRC, I'm not an expert) says that for individual particles multiple possible states exist. To extrapolate from that that the whole universe "requires" observers and that observers cannot be created or destroyed is not supported by existing science.

Originally Posted by Daffy

That is incorrect. Google Quantum Theory and "Multiple Realities" and you will find any numbers of articles on the subject. Please note: it does not (as far as I am aware) say that multiple realities exist...merely that at a quantum level all possible realities are equally likely. The mechanism which eliminates all possible realities and leaves only one is, at best, unclear.