Originally Posted by GOURDHEAD

We could probably solve the pressure difficulty if it were not for the temperature difficulty. Venus should be "explored" from the top down. The sulfuric acid clouds are believed to be a source of water and the bottom of clouds are at or near temperatures and pressures commensurate with the Earth's surface. Balloon suspended modules operating just below the clouds with microbes like methanopyrus kandleri and its thermophylic friends, genetically modified to the extent necessary, will begin the automatic terraformation of Venus. We'll work on the H2SO4 clouds with some acidophylic psychrophiles hoping that removing the clouds will help Venus cool off some. Depending on how watered down the H2SO4 is, we may have to import some water to be used as a catalyst in the balloon suspended modules.

Assume that we are being tested by the information managers of the universe to see whether we have noticed how convenient the design of the solar system is for us to learn to become space faring.

Originally Posted by Chip

If you were referring to my post (not sure) the last bit was a humorous touch.

Originally Posted by Chip

You can also enjoy the wild untamed Venus from your pressure dome window as such domes would exist for many years while hypothetical simultaneous processes effected changes.

Originally Posted by Occam's Shaving Cream

Thanks, I was wondering if it was too subtle.



Come on, even a communist* would prefer the luxury liner/casino/hotel/resort/restaurant/funland atmo-ship to a dome surrounded by bone-crushing pressures, toxic atmosphere, etc. You can't even see the sun untill you've thinned out the atmosphere significantly.

It's like prefering a location 1 kilometer underwater in a pitch-black ocean to a spot on ground level with sunlight when colonising a planet.

*don't get political now



EDIT: Ok, a lot of posts suddenly! Ok, so Venus is not as terrible as we think? Would someone in a space suit survive standing on the surface?

Originally Posted by Occam's Shaving Cream

Thanks, I was wondering if it was too subtle.



Come on, even a communist* would prefer the luxury liner/casino/hotel/resort/restaurant/funland atmo-ship to a dome surrounded by bone-crushing pressures, toxic atmosphere, etc. You can't even see the sun untill you've thinned out the atmosphere significantly.

It's like prefering a location 1 kilometer underwater in a pitch-black ocean to a spot on ground level with sunlight when colonising a planet.

*don't get political now



EDIT: Ok, a lot of posts suddenly! Ok, so Venus is not as terrible as we think? Would someone in a space suit survive standing on the surface?

Originally Posted by Occam's Shaving Cream

Did anyone see 'The Fifth Element'? I was thinking of Phloston Paradise with the flying luxury liner (which, of course eventually explodes). There is also the game Freelancer (with around 50 explorable solar systems) that also feature a company that offers 'paradise planets' and (orbiting) luxury liners.

But if it's mining you're after, you need a different approach. Who knows, these two factions might one day peacefully coexist on and above Venus

Originally Posted by Occam's Shaving Cream

Did anyone see 'The Fifth Element'? I was thinking of Phloston Paradise with the flying luxury liner (which, of course eventually explodes). There is also the game Freelancer (with around 50 explorable solar systems) that also feature a company that offers 'paradise planets' and (orbiting) luxury liners.

But if it's mining you're after, you need a different approach. Who knows, these two factions might one day peacefully coexist on and above Venus

Originally Posted by Noclevername

Getting the materials to build floating cities onto Venus would require mass transportation of materials through space; i.e., in a practical sense, asteroid mining on a large scale. If we can do that, which would require a signifigant longterm human presence in space (or self-replicating machines) then we'd already have plenty of habitats to choose from. Deciding to live on Venus would be a vanity project of sorts. (Not saying it would be bad, just no major motivation to do it. Although vanity can be a pretty major motivation )

Originally Posted by Occam's Shaving Cream

I know this thread is about terraforming, but would a sheltered dome be a better solution for colonisation? Lets say you bring all the materials from Earth, air-drop them on Venus and have robots (that can withstand the heat and pressure) assemble it on the surface. People can them come down in ships/special shuttles to dock with the base without exposing themselves to the atmosphere.

Would that be possible or am I underestimating the conditions?

Quick question here: I just read that Venus has a pressure of 90 Earth atmospheres. Will ships ever be able to take off after landing on Venus? Does a dense atmosphere means it behaves more like water (providing better lift when gaining altitude, like manouvering in water) or is it going to create so much downward force that your ship is stuck on that planet?

Originally Posted by Chip

Venus would likely not sustain a basic two layer zoned atmosphere wherein the upper altitude provided a blanket of breathable oxygen-nitrogen air. A floating city would have to have its own air supply. This would make a floating city (basically a far-flung variant of a gigantic dirigible, though not in the shape of a giant dirigible,) irrelevant. It would be more technologically feasible from an engineering standpoint to then build a gigantic orbiting spacecraft-town but then why have it orbit Venus? Developing technology for a floating city would also be highly problematic. Turbulence in the upper atmosphere of Venus would again make an orbiting spacecraft-community safer, but why bother?

The (strong) domed surface structure is a more interesting idea. But actually, I think a hypothetically transformed Venus might not be absolutely impossible if approached from the standpoint of many combined and simultaneously running technologies. As a simple sketch, just to illustrate:

1. Nanotech and bio-nano-altered CO2 transforming atmospheric implants. (This is not intended to transform Venus, but instead designed as an initial step toward altering the planet from a "Level 1" (present state) to a "Level 2" – still highly toxic but different from previous state.)

2. At the same time, ground implanted systems that receive organic carbon raining toward the hot surface preventing carbon dioxide from being liberated again. (This is the magic part because I have no idea how that could be done.)

3. Simultaneously build very strong domed outposts housing automated systems and later inhabited by people. The structures are designed for research, monitoring and control of the above systems. And simultaneously:

4. The planet is prepared by a very powerful cooling mechanism. This is necessary so that CO2 enters a liquid state. Liquid CO2 must be maintained or aided by some process to remain at a pressure and temperature that tolerates a liquid state all the way to the ground. The construction in solar orbit so that it provides continuous temperature-lowering shade, a series of gigantic interlocking strips of material to block solar heat.

All the coordinated systems are related so as to accommodate emergent modifications, in other words, the phenomenon of the sum of all applied technologies being greater than the individual parts.

5. Massive, planet-wide applications to transform Venus into a dry, warmer Earth-sized world with an unbreathable atmosphere somewhat resembling Mars in its present state.

6. Introduction of water during the above processes. (Don't know how.)

7. Introduction on the surface (which is already inhabited by generations of domed dwellers) hybrid plants and animals to aid gradual transformation toward more Earth-like conditions.

8. Landscape beach resorts and open Venusian Tiki Bars for tourists.

Originally Posted by m1omg

Or the air casyles should provide water and oxygen - send some of these to the ground.SYMBIOSIS of a luxus hotel and a mining colony !

Originally Posted by Occam's Shaving Cream

That seems quite reasonable if you are required to cross more than a dozen million kilometers to reach your job. Wasn't the whole presmisse of the game Unreal Tournament that corporate deathmatches started as a method to keep aggresive colony-miners in check/entertained? I think it's mentioned int the intro. Anyway, that other game I mentioned, Freelancer, has several terrorist/ex-mining factions that like to target corporate and police space stations.

Better keep those miners happy!

Originally Posted by Occam's Shaving Cream

...It's like prefering a location 1 kilometer underwater in a pitch-black ocean to a spot on ground level with sunlight when colonising a planet.

Originally Posted by Occam's Shaving Cream

Would someone in a space suit survive standing on the surface?

Originally Posted by Chip

Surface of Venus is not "pitch-black".

Venera 13 lander image, 1982

Not in any space suite design currently available.

Originally Posted by m1omg

I think this a right way to terraform Venus, but before that we will achieve enough advancement to do that, stick with domed and floating cities.When it will happen, it will be SIMPLY GREAT

Originally Posted by m1omg

OMG.He certainly did not mean that seriouisly.DON'T BULLY PEOPLE!

Originally Posted by Chip

Venus would likely not sustain a basic two layer zoned atmosphere wherein the upper altitude provided a blanket of breathable oxygen-nitrogen air. A floating city would have to have its own air supply. This would make a floating city (basically a far-flung variant of a gigantic dirigible, though not in the shape of a giant dirigible,) irrelevant. It would be more technologically feasible from an engineering standpoint to then build a gigantic orbiting spacecraft-town but then why have it orbit Venus? Developing technology for a floating city would also be highly problematic. Turbulence in the upper atmosphere of Venus would again make an orbiting spacecraft-community safer, but why bother?

The (strong) domed surface structure is a more interesting idea. But actually, I think a hypothetically transformed Venus might not be absolutely impossible if approached from the standpoint of many combined and simultaneously running technologies. As a simple sketch, just to illustrate:

Originally Posted by Ara Pacis

There are similarities between a cloud city and between an orbiting station, but there are also differences...

Originally Posted by Chip

Thanks for your enthusiasm. Speculation on transforming Venus is highly hypothetical. It is better to try to maintain some connections, however tenuous, to known and applied sciences, engineering and technology of today (though at times speculative).

Trying to speculate on Venus transformation goals using today's technology as a basis is actually much more exciting than simply falling back on simple comic book anecdotes (like floating cities) which actually have less engineering basis than the giant sun shields and surface domes.

Originally Posted by Ara Pacis

LOL, Occam, I was originally going to write "venera incognita" but didn't for some reason. I forgot most of my college latin.



There are similarities between a cloud city and between an orbiting station, but there are also differences. First is gravity. A cloud city would experience natural gravity that is almost the same as earth's, but an orbiting station would be in free fall. An orbiting station might use rotation to mimic gravity, but then it needs to be rather large to create the equivalent usable floor-area of gravity. On top of this, different radii in a rotating station experience different levels of acceleration which would make life and engineering more difficult than in a cloud city that uses standard gravity driven systems. Furthermore, an orbital station would have more difficulty dumping heat, by using radiators or wasteful outgassing, but a cloud city could use simple heat exchangers with the cool atmosphere at their altitude.

Second is insolation. A cloud city can use both direct sunlight and sunlight that is reflected from the clouds, so that it could have PV or thermal power systems on top or bottom or could use terraces for agriculture. However, an orbiting station can only use the sunlight that falls directly on it except when they are in shadow, and the rapid revolution and more rapid rotation of an orbital station makes lighting more dynamic, requiring more frequent adjustment.

Third is atmosphere. A could city is protected from solar and cosmic radiation and most meteors by the atmosphere at altitude, but an orbiting station would need to bring it's own solar shielding and heavy shielding may be worse than none when it comes to cosmic ray cascades. A cloud city would have time to repair a leak because of the similarity is gas densities inside and outside and precautions might require the use of simple respirators. However, a leak in a spaceborne station is a catastrophic emergency that can lead to rapid hypoxia and anoxia and would require an entire pressure suit for survival.

Fourth is resources. A floating city would be able to extract material directly out of the atmosphere and is capable of supporting surface mining operations with relatively straightforward and low energy aerostats and aerodynes (balloons and planes). An orbiting station would not be able to mine anything and transferring material between the surface and orbit would require big rockets. Of course, cloud cities would also need rockets for ascent and perhaps for the initial descent, but once in place they could mine, refine, and manufacture material for their own purposes. Furthermore, cloud cities can create their own rocket fuel in situ, but orbiting stations cannot.

Fifth is safety. As mentioned above the atmosphere provides safety from many space hazards. There might be hazards unique to Venus cloud cities in the form of turblence and volcanic eruptions, but these are analogous to hazards on earth. Mobile cloud cities may be able to avoid volcanoes that are erupting or threatening, and aerostatic or aerodynamic methods may be used to avoid or mitigate turbulences. If required, aircraft could evacuate residents from one cloud city to another one if there was an imminent threat, and this would be simpler in an atmosphere than trying to rendezvous ships and stations in orbit.

All things being equal, or equivalent, a cloud city can do more with less when compared to an orbital station. It requires less volume, less energy, less technological complexity and less mass and can perform tasks that are simply not possible with an orbital station.

As for why even be in the vicinity of Venus, I can imagine many services a floating venus colony could provide. It could be a base for solar observations and maintaining solar satallites which will be critical for warning of solar weather. It could farm food for earth's minions in an environment that is arguably safer than floating farms on earth's oceans or agri-forming currently non-arable land on earth. It could also be a major source of raw life support materials for colonies on the moon, Mars and beyond. It's rapid orbit makes it a better location for staging emergency missions to other space assets that may be on the other side of the sun from the Earth at the time of the emergency.

As for m1omg's ideas, high temperature materials will not make the surface livable. The materials may be useful for robot missions to the surface by humans cannot survive those temperatures. Insulation does not stop heatflow, it mearly slows it down. Even a vacuum shell would warm up via radiation and conductivity through the few hard points you may have. Eventually (probably rapidly), a dome on the surface of venus would be as hot inside as it is outside. Refrigerants won't work because they require moving heat from one location to another, but there is no cooler location to dump the heat when you're on the surface of Venus. This is true of any spacesuit you would try to use. You might be able to get away with modules that cool via offgassing cryogenic liquids, but that would extend your stay for mere hours, or a few days at the most. Therefore you would still need support from other locations, such as floating cities, where you can intermittantly recharge those cryogenic coolant tanks and cool off the pressure vessels used on the surface. Ascent from the surface could probably be performed by using the principle of boyancy (balloons), perhaps filled with the off-gassed coolant.