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Looked around and didn't see this posted yet (although I probably just missed it)
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/0...eut/index.html Quote:
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I was just sitting here contemplating the immortal words of Socrates who said, "I drank what?" "Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot." --Carl Sagan "Pale Blue Dot" |
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WOW for that information!
But... Claim of Martian Life Called 'Bogus' What a shame for a scientific man to call BOGUS the work of another profesionals. Painfull to read. |
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The Rovers weren't set up to confirm or deny this hypothesis?
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According to the MER home page, the scientific instrument package on the rovers are:
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I was just sitting here contemplating the immortal words of Socrates who said, "I drank what?" "Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot." --Carl Sagan "Pale Blue Dot" |
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Norman Pace, a microbiologist at the University of Colorado, is skeptical of the new claims. "It sounds bogus to me," Pace told SPACE.com. "I don't consider the chemical results to be particularly credible in light of the hash conditions that Mars offers." The fact is that there just isn't that much information available from the experiments. At most you can speculate. And that's what they're doing. Also from the article: "If we assume these gases were produced during the breakdown of organic material together with hydrogen peroxide solution, we can calculate the masses needed to produce the volume of gas measured," Houtkooper explained. Houtkooper and his colleague Dirk Schulze-Makuch from Washington State University speculate that an organism based on hydrogen peroxide and water could survive the harsh martian climate, in which temperatures rarely rise above freezing and can reach -238 degrees Fahrenheit (-150 degrees Celsius) at the poles. The hydrogen peroxide would act like antifreeze for the cell, preventing its insides from crystallizing due to the cold. (Emphasis added). It seems likely that the popular press is making more out of a speculative argument than was intended.
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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong? Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability. The Leif Ericson Cruiser |
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As implying a deliberate deception? No, I might say that an improperly written program produces "bogus results." That doesn't mean the writer (which might be me) deliberately wrote the program to produce bad results. Or I might say that (for example) the argument that the surface of the sun is solid iron based on some images is a "bogus conclusion." That is, I'm trying to say the process used to arrive at the conclusion wasn't a valid one. It doesn't require that the person arriving at the conclusion knows it was invalid.
I take his comment as an indication he thinks the argument is very wrong, as I do the solid iron sun argument.
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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong? Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability. The Leif Ericson Cruiser |
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This is not exactly a shiny, new thought.
Washington State University News, 2007 January 8 Quote:
BA Blog: Are Martians blonds? Quote:
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They've been declaring that they've found "evidence that maybe there might have once been life that could have done this" for every soil sample they've taken. Until they find cell walls, or active chemical processes, or something concrete and direct it's speculative.
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http://amssolarempire.blogspot.com |
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The BA expresses my opinion: Quote:
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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me) |
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(Edit: Upon a re-read, did I miss your point? When you said "not at all" did you mean that it no longer pains you to hear the work described as bogus -- because you now know that "bogus" can mean "wrong"? If so, I apologize for these details. Or, was your "not at all" an indication that your feeling hasn't changed? If so, continue on.) Did you see the "hacker slang" entry lower on the page? Quote:
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Yes, I'm so used to the "bogus=wrong" definition that I was a bit surprised that this was brought up in the first place. I might use "bogus" to emphasize something is wrong, but before this thread, it wouldn't have occurred to me that some people would assume I was implying fakery just by using that word.
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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong? Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability. The Leif Ericson Cruiser |
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Planetary Society Weblog: Doug Ellison: Europlanet : Life's a bleach
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That's exactly what I suspected. As I said before -
It seems likely that the popular press is making more out of a speculative argument than was intended. I liked this comment from here: Ironically, despite the big-name media reporting on this event so widely - I see none of their journalists at Europlanet. Thanks to The Planetary Society - yours truly will actually be there.
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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong? Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability. The Leif Ericson Cruiser |
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You are right. I guess i didn´t expect to see such slang language from a science man and maybe a "wrong" or "incorrect" "or "false" would be much more apropiatte. Nevermind. |
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And yes, "bogus" here means "wrong", not "fake". |
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Wouldn't it really mean false but deliberate. Like a straw-man argument raised for a reason. In this case to point out possible alternative interpretations of results, rather that to actually erect a hypothesis.
The 'hacker' definitions refer to nuaunced terms eg 'broken' has been effectively redefined as 'defective', even 'wrong' = 'perverse'. In any case there remains a hostile overtone to 'bogus' and is a little inappropriate, imo. 'Spurious' might have been a better term to use.
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plenty of woo, at the hotel hoagaland... |
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No, it can just mean "wrong."
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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong? Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability. The Leif Ericson Cruiser |
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http://amssolarempire.blogspot.com |
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There is definitely a difference between saying that conclusions are wrong and that they are bogus. Someone claiming that one of my papers was wrong i would accept as being part of the game. Claims that it was bogus I would see as an attack on my personal integrity.
As to the original topic, while I think the I think the speculation in question unlikely it is certainly most interesting and worthy of further investigation. I can't see how anyone would call it bogus unless either they were misusing the word or had an axe to grind. Jon |
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this whole thread is bogus, dude..
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"blacker than the blackest black... times infinity."- Nathan Explosion The.. Best.. Thread..Ever... |
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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong? Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability. The Leif Ericson Cruiser |
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It's irrelevant to the issue.
Or were used to a different, commonly used, definition.[/QUOTE] I have checked a half a dozen online dictionaries and the word "bogus" has meanings such as "false, fraudulant, dishonest, not genuine, counterfeit" in all of them. Jon |
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It most certainly is relevant. There are regional differences in common usage. For instance, it's quite clear that British use is different from common American use. I will say it again: It would not occur to me that this was such a horrible thing to say. If I want to say something is wrong, I might well say that "it is bogus." (After this thread, I think I'll make a point of doing it.)
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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong? Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability. The Leif Ericson Cruiser |
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It most certainly is relevant. There are regional differences in common usage. For instance, it's quite clear that British use is different from common American use..[/QUOTE]
Not at all. The dictionary definition from a wide range of sources is substantially the same, regardless of ethnicity. Encarta 1. fake or deceitful: false, dishonest, or fraudulently imitating something 2. bad or useless: not good, pleasant, or acceptable ( slang ) [Early 19th century. Bogus, a machine for producing counterfeit money] http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/featur...fid=1861591603 Cambridge advanced learner’s dictionary false, not real or not legal http://dictionary.cambridge.org/defi...8602&dict=CALD Oxford Dictionary not genuine or true. http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/bogus?view=uk American Heritage Dictionary Counterfeit or fake; not genuine: bogus money; bogus tasks. http://www.bartleby.com/61/86/B0368600.html Cambridge American English dictionary not what it appears or claims to be; false but made to look real http://dictionary.cambridge.org/defi...gus*1+0&dict=A Merriam-Webster's not genuine, counterfeit, sham http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...onary&va=bogus Wiktionary counterfeit, fake, phony, incorrect, useless, broken, illegal http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Bogus Online Plain Text English Dictionary Spurious; fictitious; sham; -- a cant term originally applied to counterfeit coin, and hence denoting anything counterfeit. http://www.onelook.com/?other=web1913&w=Bogus (I am not sure whether all these links will work freely, they are from online support at work). Quote:
A conclusion can be false or incorrect, without being bogus. Saying that a conclusion is bogus implies deliberate dishonesty. I have no problem with saying that a conclusion is dishonest either, but please, let's have some evidence for that before we do. In this case, the suggestion is speculative and is quite possibly wrong. But it is not incompentent The suggestion by David Levin about water puddling in Endurance crater was wrong and incompetent, but not dishonest. Hoagland is dishonest and the content of his web site bogus. With respect to the original hypothesis about Martian life, note, we have no way of testing whether is is correct or incorrect at present. results from Phoenix may help. However it does enable people to think outside the box and better evaluate and design future life hunting experiments on Mars. Therefore it is a very useful speculation, regardless whether it is right or wrong. Jon |
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Are you going to accuse me of dishonesty? Did you bother to read this post: Study: Martian soil may contain life Is he being dishonest?
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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong? Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability. The Leif Ericson Cruiser |
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You are simply refusing to admit you are wrong in your use of the language when faced with abundant documented evidence to the correct meaning of the term "bogus". Your failure to face facts is noted. Whether this is dishonest is not for me to say. Jon Last edited by JonClarke; 28-August-2007 at 04:44 AM.. Reason: extra content |
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