Darwin's theory applies to extra-intelligent species as well.


All life wants to survive right?

The problem is that you will need a biosphere once you arrive, and any planets in the destination will almost certainly need terraforming before they are viably habitable. So while throwing away your biosphere makes deceleration easier you end up without anywhere to live which kinda defeats to object of traveling to the new system in the first place.
Assuming that you don't need said billion ton biosphere to live in until you can terraform the planet and/or build additional biospheres.

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That's an interesting notion that I have pondered many a sleepless night. Clearly, there are things which boggle the human mind, well, at least mine. If you follow the chain if regression to the point of origin, you arrive at one of two conclusions.

Either the universe is infinite and has always existed, with no beginning and no end (I'm not just talking about our observable universe, but an overarching manifold) or it came into being at some point from absolute nothingness. Both concepts boggle the (human) mind. How can something always exist without having a beginning and a (possible) end - infinity? How can something come from absolute nothingness (and by nothing, I mean no space-time, no virtual quantum particles - absolute nothingness).

I sure as heck can't wrap my mind around those concepts, even though I can talk about them, but could an even more intelligent being be able to make more sense of these things? It's hard to imagine...

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"Well, gee' they might wanna know, I mean; what happens if I, drop a black hole, in a black hole?"

Somehow, I don't think suicidal kamikaze dives will be a viable form of colonization for any lifeform.

Perhaps we can't assume their physiology, but it's an educated guess and the best one we've got.

I didn't specify the terms of the conflict. I'm not positing genocide or continuous war, but there will probably be occasional arguments, treaties, and perhaps occasional hostilities between races and with various internal factions of both.

My point was to bridge the debate between "It'll never happen" to "If it does happen they'll be much more advanced than us" by positing what I consider to be a scenario that is more plausible than both. If we are to have a policy regarding this, it behooves us to consider the most realistic possibility. Call it intellectual triage, an attempt to examine a scenario we can do something about.

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Nope. Other living things do it all the itme, or else predators would starve and every lion would be an alpha male.

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Your right... we cant assume their physiology... or for that matter, their motives, their drives, their technology or their behaviours. In other words, we have no idea what they might be like. There are gazillions of possibilities.

For instance you speak of internal fractions... that again is an example of anthropomorphising.... they may be a monolithic society with no internal factions... they may be a hive... who knows.

The point is that what you refer to as an educated guess is, in fact, our uneducated guess based on a sample size of one. In no way is that a basis to form a policy... apart from... lets be cautious.

Some folk like to talk about evolutionary pressure and behaviours as though we have enough of an idea from earth-life what broad sorts of behaviours we will see in aliens.(if they exist). I would suggest that most of us (especially me) don't even know the tiniest fraction of the different sorts of behaviours available (and used by) even earth life-forms.

It is entirely possible that they will be human like with slightly differing eye colour.... but my bet would be that different circumstances will produce different answers to the problems of life.

Look at us.... we are fish. All of our (and most other animals) morphological features hark back to (at least... and possibly earlier) the earliest finned fish we know... the sharks. Look at symmetry... a nearly universal principle here on earth. I will bet it is built into your subconscious views of alien morphology. But it could be a purely earth based feature... and its presence or lack could have startling effects on all sorts of behaviours.

Often we are like English gentry of the 19th century considering that all the 'natives' of the world are uncivilised... our world view is way too constrained.

My point in all this is lets be cautious... lets stop astronomers from periodically shouting out to the universe... 'Come on by and stop in for dinner....'

Sure we can. We have to if we are to speak on the subject intelligently.

Nope. Anthropes are not the only known animals to have factional activity.

There are more than one species of life on earth; species that have evolved to live in variations of our atmosphere, hydrosphere, and lithosphere.

Chemistry is as chemistry does.

You'd be wrong.

Maybe you are like that. So far as I can tell, the discussions are about alien civilizations, not alien uncivilizations.

Then go talk to the movers and shakers. Most of the people here are hobbyists. If you're really that worried then go talk to people who can make a difference. Just don't assasinate any scientists or blow up any radio telescopes, please.

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Hey... come on.... perhaps I have been pitching my thoughts on this all wrong. That is the only conclusion I can come to if you think its appropriate to mention violence to astronomers as part of this discussion. Please don't mention it again... and yes I realise that I left the door open to that type of thinking by mentioning earlier after-bad-first-contact consequences... I was imagining universal condemnation from others and remorse on the naive astronomers part.... not violence. I really regret opening that door now.

I must admit I am faintly disturbed that the discussion could drift to the point that you would think violence needs mentioning. Perhaps anyone that doesn't think like you is dangerous and therefore potentially violent... makes you wonder what you would think of aliens....

Ok... now that we know that this is a discussion about changing peoples minds... not about destroying them...

Rubbish. (I am slightly peeved that you spoke the way you did... it is currently showing in my abrupt rebuttal.... I will try and assume good intentions on everyone's part from now on.... and be more like my normal polite self...)

You have never rebutted or spoke to my single point... that caution is the correct posture to adopt in an alien landscape. No amount of 'intelligent' discussion about how their world ships are more likely to be spherical and at .75c rather than cubic and at .86c, or whether they have silicon based chemistry with DNA analogues etc, is going to alter the basic fact... in an alien environment the correct posture is caution. The rest of the uninformed guessing is just that. (Uninformed?!?! I hear you say... Yes.... unless you have had some contact that the rest of us haven't.)

My point is that they might NOT be like us, in that we are not normally cohesive. You point doesn't alter (or even speak to) that.

Are you trying to be obtuse here? It still is a sample size of one.... our biosphere.

Again... limited sample size seems to be limiting your thinking.... the range of possible chemistries and life cycle solutions are likely way beyond anything than we can imagine. DNA... just one possible way of transferring genes. Other molecules with similar characteristics available... no doubt... none of us can think of it yet... but perhaps we will. Does it even need an internal complex molecule to code for life? Perhaps not... other ideas have been mooted.

Regarding me betting you are subconsciously assuming symmetry in aliens...
I often am. Glad to hear that you are open to non earth type solutions to life's little problems.

Now this was the type of thing that peeved me a tad. A personal slur. So I have responded in a similar way.... now I have it off my chest and we are "one slip up all" lets not descend down here again.

As it happens, I think its possible they may not be civilisations at all... maybe they are pod, or school, or families or single individuals... who knows? They may be space based... who says you need to be built in a gravity well? They may be nothing like what they were when they first started out into space a billion years ago....

Ok... that's good advice.... but in a way I was thinking that this is a first step along in that direction... _some_ of the people here are active astronomers... perhaps I am planting a little seed of doubt in some of their minds... I sure hope so.

As for a more active program of talking to astronomers directly... at the moment I wouldn't even know how to go about it... I will keep it in mind.

Lets face it... only a few comments here show support for my view in this thread... so if I cant convince you guys, I need to hone my arguments a bit before taking it any further.

In a weak attempt to cease the negativity here, this seventeen year old would like to ask something.

Is it just me that gets a tickle-y, weird feeling in ones' stomach when contemplating how much this race, I happen to be a part of, is growing, and how much we as a race have yet to learn?

Just say, that this planet gets visited by an alien race.

I dare say that in spite of trying to make a good example, we'd all be speechless, and cowardly.

Even the brave-hearts of this species would buckle down.

Though I wouldn't dare try 'n' change this thread from it's initial: "How should first contact be handled" to "How would we feel when first contact arrives" although both can merge...

It's just...

Maybe it's an adolescent thing, and topped by the fact I know nothing of what you lot probably do, but I'm really into this whole 'space' thing

Haha, but no, seriously, if we don't all die before we're worth anything to the Universe, I can see a really bright future for our race

-Sits back satisfied.

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"Well, gee' they might wanna know, I mean; what happens if I, drop a black hole, in a black hole?"

I think you misread N!ck's post. He says that mammals are the only animals that ever place the life of another creature (usually one's mate or children) above one's own.

That is actually not true -- there are many non-mammalian species known to sacrifice themselves for their offspring.

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Fiction has to be plausible. Reality is under no such constraint.

I feel exactly the same, N!ck. It's so big, and so mysterious, and exciting!

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First of all, there will be no "OMGZ ALIENS RUN FOR YOUR LIVES", because long before they make physical contact with us, they'll make transmissive contact first, to let us all know that they are human, not praying space mantises with squishy and crunchy exoskeletons. Of course if they're capable of getting here, they're not going to be grotesque looking things, they'd probably look caucasian, but far more attractive, and of course with much larger brains.. simply because the truth is objective, not as Star Trek would have you believe with butthead aliens running around pretending to be 'equal' under a communist government guised as a "federation".

My guess for the reason they're (real aliens) not here yet is because they're still too far away... and that's the only reason because all life wants to explore. Planet earth can only contain so much life, and the only reason it's holding up now is because we all still die. Immortality will only come with omniscience. And when we achieve that, we will know where those other beings are, and they will know us, and we will want to meet each other. So, eventually, like our ape-like ancestors left the trees in search of a better life, we will leave the earth in search for our brothers and sisters in outer space.

Forget all the hollywood <inappropriate language removed> brainwash about aliens, the real space aliens look just like us (if they are as or more intelligent than us). All hollywood has ever done was try to destroy nature, and desensitize people to their inner truths, and to create self-doubt in everyone.

What we long for, the reason we wonder, is the same reason we exist. There's something else out tehre, and we want to know what it is. The fact that we wonder and ponder about what is out there, proves that there is something out there, better than us.

You know that is so unlikely as to be practically impossible, don't you. Unless you are suggesting that any advanced alien would have the capability to change their appearance to look like humans; that is possible, but not guaranteed.

In reality intelligent aliens might look like anything from fungus(a cooperative symbiotic microbiological mind) to a Coke machine(a compact artificial intelligence) or a myriad other options.

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I take it you base your assumptions from science fiction movies. Star Trek much? Star Wars? Sightings? Any of the other <inappropriate language removed> gypsy crap you watch? You probably believe movies like "war of the worlds" and "independence day" depicting alien beings as hateful beings too stupid to take care of their own planets but smart enough to build space ships the size of multiple american states aren't flawed. Honestly, if those alien beings lead such a destructive existence up to that point of their biological evolution, they wouldn't have had the common sense and organizational abilities to develop enough of a common understanding of the universe to design space craft capable of interstellar travel, especiallly any that isn't 100% sure to be explode before they even see any sign of life off the ground that the craft crashes into after takeoff.

What we know is what we know, and as your brain is not separate from your body, neither is the truth. To know the truth, you must reflect it. If you think the truth is subjective in the way that these other beings in outerspace look like slimy cock roaches, think again. Think of a tiger. Fast, big, powerful, strong, but for what? He's all these things to speed up his own 12 years of life to death. And if he isn't any of those things, he dies even sooner. The tiger is a slave to his prey, he is a prey to his prey. He relies on them, and thus the ground upon which their prey bleeds to death becomes the tiger's ultimate fate. You are what you eat...

So basicallly, advantages are disadvantages. YOu have to live in harmony with the universe to have the understanding it takes to travel light years. Not destroy everything. You are what you eat (destroy). So these aliens aren't going to be grotesque looking beings that just kill <inappropriate language removed> because that's what they do, they're human. Beauty is objective, because truth is objective. And as blue eyes seems to be the most beautiful eye color, it sounds about right that aliens would know this too.

I will have to eradicate you, Earthling...