Circumstantial evidence is still evidence.

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"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau

1st of all thanks to all you SIRS for giving your valuable viewpoints ..2ndly sorry I was little busy during weekdays..( coz of *&* internet marketing professional ***** forget..) so just unavailable to clarify my point...

See friends I have nothing which proves that they have any kind of Vimanas ( you seems discussed a lot.. ) or what kinda supernatural powers they have or what is written in ancient books and how much is reality(just coz someone is saying means should I accept ! )....

My assertion is based on some points...Just as Mr. Trocisp talk about Jupiter..see what to take into account is that they take jupiter as protector ( some dev guru brahaspati If I am right) and see practically ( broad image ) its indeed a protector..Its gravity did protect us from big pieces/ rocks/ asteroids ( whatever they are called ...) This is just one similarity which I notice....( POINT TO TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT-- GRAVITATION/GRAVITY IS THE CONNECTION BRIDGE.....WHICH RELATES THESE STORIES AND TECH..CONCEPT..
AND RAISE YOUR HANDS HOW MANY OF YOU SAY THAT WE KNOW THE ORIGINAL FORCE which is w.r.t. MATTER THAT WELL. Most of the physics laws and all chemical bondings are coz of it... )

See what my 2nd point was....

I talk about gravity ...not their stories.(...that I am talking because that percentage of people on planet have faith or etc..)..What the concept is that Gravitational force is the thing which do helps in movements around..but its mathematics seems far complex....

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I thought I would do a little bid of Googling on this subject and top of the hit list as you would expect came Wikipedia which had this to say:
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The predecessors of the flying vimanas of the Sanskrit epics are the flying chariots employed by various gods in the Vedas: the Sun (see Sun chariot) and Indra and several other Vedic deities are transported by flying wheeled chariots pulled by animals, usually horses (but the Vedic god Pūsan's chariot is pulled by goats, as is that of Norse Thor).

The Rigveda does not mention Vimanas, but verses RV 1.164.47-48 have been taken as evidence for the idea of "mechanical birds":

47. kṛṣṇáṃ niyânaṃ hárayaḥ suparṇâ / apó vásānā dívam út patanti
tá âvavṛtran sádanād ṛtásyâd / íd ghṛténa pṛthivî vy ùdyate
48. dvâdaśa pradháyaś cakrám ékaṃ / trîṇi nábhyāni ká u tác ciketa
tásmin sākáṃ triśatâ ná śaṅkávo / 'rpitâḥ ṣaṣṭír ná calācalâsaḥ

"Dark the descent: the birds are golden-coloured; up to the heaven they fly robed in the waters.
Again descend they from the seat of Order, and all the earth is moistened with their fatness."
"Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single; three are the naves. What man hath understood it?
Therein are set together spokes three hundred and sixty, which in nowise can be loosened." (trans. Griffith)

In Dayananda Saraswati's "translation", these verses become:

"jumping into space speedily with a craft using fire and water ... containing twelve stamghas (pillars), one wheel, three machines, 300 pivots, and 60 instruments."

But likelier in the original Indian symbolism when that hymn was composed, the wheel is a year, the 12 "fellies" are months (lunations), and the 360 spokes are days.
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As I suspected and is often the case with ancient writings it is all in the translation. Most of us cannot read ancient texts in their original form and must rely upon the work of others to provide us with the supposed evidence. It is often here that the first "corruption" of the original story appears as the translator repackages the words to either suit a modern audience or to present the information in a way that supports his point of view.

Let us not forget some very important facts about technologies they are the products of their own time and culture built upon with gradual improvements.

If a 21st century electronics engineer were "magically" transported back to early Victorian England and went to have a meeting with IK Brunel, Babbage or the Stevensons or any of the other great engineering and mechanical minds of those times and said "Hey guys I have a great idea to build a machine that can do accuracte calculations at high speed and help with all your projects". He would not have got very far in a society which was still grappling with basics of direct current produced from lead acid cells. So what, if he could draw diagrams of and explain to them how a microprossor works, nobody including him could make one given the tools and materials available in the 1840s.

Similarly for an ancient culture to have had aircraft as advanced as we have today or even spacecraft more advanced than we have yet built, then they would have needed the industrial base to build it and support it. No single Royal Appointed Engineer, no matter how visionary, could construct a modern air force without all the trappings of an industrial society. Where were the powerplants to power the factories, where were the factories for the fabricating the avionics, the tyres for the landing gear, insulation, sound proofing, not to mention all the copper wire or fiber optics. The refinerys for producing the fuels, the mines to obtain the aluminium and other essential materials. If all that had existed way back then you can be sure that some evidence of it would still be found today.

If on the other hand you are going to suggest that the ancients did not need crude machines like turbojets but that their aircraft could be flown by the mental power of levitation, then I suggest you take that to a Supernatural forum not here. Furthermore if the anicents posessed such powerful forces as modern fighter and bomber squadrons then they would have certainly retired all their war elephants, in which case there would be no mention of those animals in their battles. When was the last time you heard of a Cavalry Brigade charging into battle on horseback supported by a squadron of jets up above. It has never happened because it does not make technological sense. Furthermore if you are going to credit an ancient civilisation with advanced technologies they have to fit into their own rational chronology. There is no point in one account suggesting they had antigravity propulsion while at the same time describing how in another verse that their machines made sounds like jet engines - cherry picking the odd phrase here or there from some ancient writing and then by using dubious translation to find equivalent modern words to say "look! they are are talking about a nuclear submarine" is something I am always deeply sceptical about.

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True, though not reliable evidence. The problem in this case is defining what counts as even circumstantial evidence, and what counts as misleading false evidence. Without any non-circumstantial evidence to provide an outside context for our judgements of mythology, there's no way to tell what's based on reality (and to what degree) and what's just made up.

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

If this is evidence, than every interpretation of every story ever written, regardless of objective verification, is "evidence." So, that would make my D&D Monster Manual evidence.

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

It's not even a weak piece of evidence, I think, because we don't know the context.
It's our interpretation that makes it look one thing or another, neither verifiable or falsifiable.

Your D&D Monster Manual is a good comparison:
bury that for a few thousand years, and future generations might not be able to interpret its context anymore
(might as well be evidence for the existence of mythological beings...)

That's an excellent piece of writing, 3rdvogon.

And frankly, real history (or for that matter, mythology in the form it was originally intended to be) is far more interesting than "Hey wow, aliens gave them antigravity!" nonsense, although that sort of thing can make for enjoyable fantasy novels.

As has been observed, Homer wrote about robots - suits of armour that walked around and did skilled smithy tasks for Hephaestus. Well actually they were not robots in the sense we mean. They had magic animating spirits in them, not servo motors and microprocessors, because Homer didn't know about these things.

Let me go by your point..because your point is right on technical ground....

Leave aside those historic aliens for a while.....

Do you ever imagine to relate gravity to movement in this way....that's the whole center of mass/ core of all discussion..????

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I have read this, and your other comments about gravity. I have no idea what you mean.

I've sometimes been amused by the idea of what folks a few thousand years from now might make of fragmentary records of Star Trek/Star Wars/Star Gate/B5 etc. Here, of course, you have stories with people that are made up to look a little unusual, using fantastic machines (starships are essentially modern flying chariots). I expect there would be some claiming they are evidence of ET visitation, though.

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand your question. Just guessing, but are you talking about the "Planet X" idea? We've occasionally had folks arguing for a (somehow) invisible giant planet, sometimes called "Planet X" or "Nibiru" that (according to them) is supposed to enter the inner solar system in just a few years (or in other versions of the story, was supposed to be here already). Is this what you're referring to? If that is the case, I'm afraid there's no evidence for it.

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

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You ain't nobody 'til you've been banned.

I would love to listen in on those debates

We already have a model to go on there - remember Galaxy Quest and the "Historical Documents"?

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Another model to go on is the 'True History' written by Lucian of Samosata in the second century C.E. He describes a journey to the Moon, mentions colonies on Venus and on comets, and a war between the Sun and the Moon.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/true/index.htm

If this story only existed in fragments, and the first part (where he admits that the story is not, in fact true) were missing, what would the Von Dannikens of the world make of it?

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Sorry but after looking at the way discussion is going on.... it seems that my comment about gravity looks too supernatural or imaginary.......but frankly for me its all natural...(yeah some tough work ahead.....leave)..Ok then I ask it in more understandable way....
What do you guys think of gravity...how does it affects in movement around for creatures.( Is that too imaginary concept...a kinda sci-fi......! )

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I still don't understand the question. Do you mean how creatures move in gravity as opposed to free-fall conditions?

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

I think what he is hinting at is the gravity is in someway a human invention or rather the common explanation of it is a human invention and very much a western one. That if you do not allow yourself to be tied to that kind of thinking and view gravity differently then you should be able to manipulate its effects. Its a rather nice mystical idea but if you are going to do that then you have to throw away all the principles of scientific reasoning that our civilisation is built upon.

This rather reminds me of something Douglas Adams wrote "Flying is the art of throwing yourself at the ground missing it". In other words if you don't stop to think flying is impossible then you can fly. Of course some people who took mind altering drugs thought they could fly but that belief still did not stop them from killing themselves on the street below.

So far the only place I know where I can defy gravity on a regular basis without any difficulty is within Second Life.

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narender, instead of having us guess the meaning of your posts,
why don't you make a little effort and be more specific!

Frankly this is not what I was expecting...I thought you get what I was looking for ? May be this question is not for bautforum Its for somebody who understand ( or believe better say......) what's the meaning of consciousness, the actual material force associated with matter particle and last but not least who understand what is love ( attraction male- female, male- male or creature or creature......and relate that to matter)
Anyway ..thanks ..well I am just a graduate from india searching and exploring the surrounding in my own way..( have never go through any of the astronomy classes after 12th ) yep just some youtube videos and Hubble stuff. Am scared of death,understand that this is a big thing and importantly understand what pain and happiness is....so just got involve ( or want to )in something from where I get some solution...

Again thanks ...to you all good buddies for your replies

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Why must consciousness have a meaning? It's just an emergent behaviour. It has no more meaning than life itself. It may or may not develop.

You lost me there, I'm afraid...

It can be an emotion, a physiological reaction - physical attraction, a stable set of thoughts and behaviours reinforced over time through experience. Probably a bunch of other stuff too.

Thank you Sir ...

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Narender - It seems to me and probably some other posters here, that you are applying mystical ideas to the physical world. This suggests that you believe that human thought carries with it something that can influence objects in the physical world which extends beyond the mechanical actions of our muscles.

I cannot speak for everyone on this forum but I strongly suspect that most of us consider human thoughts to simply be processes that operate in our brains. These can effect the actions of our own bodies nothing more. Although through language we may influence the thoughts and actions of other humans but we certainly do not in any way - shape - transform - move physical objects in the world around us simply by thinking about them. Such ideas may be entertaining in fantasies in books or on screen but they are simply fantasies nothing more.

Every time tests have been carried out upon the "power of the mind" using established Scientific methods it has generally been proven that the established science was right and the mysticism was wrong. It would be a wonderful thing if our minds could somehow alter gravity but I am sorry to say the overwhelming quantity of physical evidence is totally against it.

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my emphasis

Why are you scared of death, something you can not control? Well, to a degree you can, but we're born to die none the less.

What do the Hindu texts offer as some solution?

Perhaps you could share some particular passages from which your questions about material force, matter particles and consciousness arise?

Given that most Westerners are ignorant of Hindu religion and mythology you shouldn't expect much insight from them, unless they can see exactly what you're talking about.

Again, excerpts from the texts would be helpful.





ETA ("ask" in this case): What has any of this to do with "alien theory from different angle?"

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

That's why.

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

Huh?

Are you scared of death because you can not control it?
Are you scared of death because it is a natural part of life?

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

See DIM I have nothing to do with what written ..where....its my assumption on some ideology ( as I can't say facts otherwise you wanna ask me to present them...) which I feel as a creature not as a web marketer or blogger etc its just about to think neutrally..and analyze them ( rather than judging on the basis of what majority of scientists or saints have to say; don't know whatever their reasons are...of course they are not unaffected by social surroundings in which they live ).

There is a lot of pain.. DIM. I know only one thing that whenever a person have an accident minor / major or even just got scratch on any body part then he feel a kinda FEELING WHICH IS NEGATIVE ( I CAN'T DEFINE THAT NEGATIVITY just as I can't explain you the interconnectivity between etc etc...above..) but its a fact mate that this negativity is exactly opposite to POSITIVITY WHICH WE FEEL WHEN WE THINKS WE GAIN SOMETHING OR DURING ATTRACTION TIME...(ie. love or sex ) ....Important thing is one can't digest a pinch of -ivity but can easily enjoy any kinda +ivity ..(See its somewhat like salt and sugar case..) and that is the thing for which I know there is no answer...may be there is but its too high-fi and a creature sitting on a kinda planet with life some time limited ( countdown...). May be you wanna say that we can use such medicines which just don't let us feel that pain future age over 100 - 400 years etc etc.. ( physicality issue.. I think of them all ) ..THIS PLUS- MINUS FEELING IS WITH THE CONCIOUSNESS AND THIS IS SOMETHING WHICH NO ONE CAN ALTER WITH coz its ...tiny tiny...with identity... I KNOW THAT THERE IS A LONG WAY AHEAD....LONG LIFE TO LIVE..death .........forget.....may be you get my point...

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Sorry, Narender, I do not get your point.

I'm still trying to figure out what this has to do with "alien theory from different perspective."

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

For once A DIM I think you and I are in complete agreement - or perhaps the same complete bewilderment. In most of Narender's earlier posts I thought I had some idea what he was trying to say but now I am completely lost. As to where Saints, Love, Pain and Medicine come into all of this just leaves my head spinning - maybe that is the problem - I do my thinking with my brain not with my heart. Perhaps Narender does not accept that his heart is just a pump.

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Because I can't do anything about it. Even if I'm in perfect health and minimize risks, Doom is still waiting eventually. I don't like that.

And "natural" in this context just means "we haven't found a better way yet". Diseases are natural, but we cure those all the time. Hunger is natural, but we eat. Walking is natural, but we have invented transportation. We do unnatural things like eat cooked food, live in houses, wear clothing, and chat on the internet.

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort