http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7399661.stm

Hmm. Interesting.
Now BBC loves to write "the Vatican" when it's just the opinion of one priest who happens to live there, but still...
What's your take on this? Personally I'm agnostic but I'd like to see some ideas for religious explanations of aliens.

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Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.

"Half of what I say is meaningless, but I say it so that the other half may reach you."

This sounds a bit like a preparation for the worst-case scenario
Maybe they've learned something from the 'Galileo PR disaster' after all...

Literalistic folks point out that according to the Word- what was created was the Earth, sun and such- and all OTHER things were not and are the realm of Satan and his minions... The Earth was created prior to the sun... (no comment) and so on.

Anyway- I perceive disaster for this thread.

ETA: I will note that at the bottom of this thread page, there was a related thread...:
Bad Astronomer... or SATAN?!

Which was good for a very hearty laugh. So all is not lost.

Eep! It definitely wasn't my idea to bring forth disaster. Mods, lock this thread if you think it was off topic.

I just thought it was interesting. Maybe the Catholics are on an image campaign now that the protestants over in the US are so vocal.
...or maybe they know something we don't?

I don't think it's necessarily impossible to combine aliens and the bible. The Genesis talks about God parting heaven and Earth, but it does not really specify what he did in Heaven, just what he did on Earth...

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Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.

"Half of what I say is meaningless, but I say it so that the other half may reach you."

I think that for one who believes in a creator- it makes sense to conclude that the creator will be involved with alien life just as well as our own.

I think this is a Wise Move on the part of the Catholic Stance.

In asking questions about the origins, one will ultimately come to those they cannot answer at a given time.
At some point, we may well be faced with alien life forms. I think it's important that we respect them whether they be microbes or highly advanced species.

A large religion taking the stance that they are "like us" is far preferable than one that declares they must be of (Bad devil dude name here). Which many are doing.

I've crossed the line at this point.

I agree with Neverfly.

I note as well that BBC states the headline was "Aliens are my brother" when the Physorg article states the headline was "The extraterrestrial is my brother."

Whatever the case, upon reading the article I thought "so Jesus was a planet hopper?"

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

Or more desensitization...

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

I suppose it's been translated from either Latin or Italian or whatever language they use for their magazines there

Anyway, if the Aliens were never in Eden and don't have original sin, they might not need Jesus to save them
(Hmm, interesting theory. Humans have eaten from the tree of knowledge, therefore they are mortal and sinners... aliens would then be sinless but also moral-less or god's willing zombies?)

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Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.

"Half of what I say is meaningless, but I say it so that the other half may reach you."

I suppose the most extended fiction on this theme is that of C.S.Lewis (about which I will only say that it's a pity that the real Mars and (especially) Venus are so much more hostile environments than his fictional versions).

The Bible is replete with references to encounters with "heavenly" beings, angels and emissaries of God. Most strikingly, to me, is are the Nephilim of 6:4, when "those who came down," the sons of God, mated with the "daughters of Man." This is what lead to Man's wickedness: mating with those "fallen" angels.


In Genesis, the "firmament" was renamed "heaven."
Hebrew Rakia.
So what was the firmament?

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

The bible has been through so many translations that it might be impossible to tell.

But yes, I was also thinking of those heavenly beings. Also of the people that already lived in the places Adam and Eve came to after they got kicked out of Eden. Their kids took them as husbands and wives. Where did they come from?

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Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.

"Half of what I say is meaningless, but I say it so that the other half may reach you."

Well, if one considers the source material for much of Genesis, she or he will find that the E.DIN is where the "garden of the gods" was located. Those "gods" were the Anunnaki, translated as "those from heaven to earth came."



Nah, the "gods" as portrayed by the ancients were much like ourselves: physically present, capable of love, jealousy, hatred, revenge...

"Knowing" in the biblical sense is procreation.

For Enki so loved his creation, Mankind, he granted them the ability to procreate; they were hybrids after all, a found creature modified by the blood of another "god" meant to relieve the "gods" of their toil in the gardens and mines.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

Which I why I prefer to understand some of the Hebrew language.

Indeed the book, particularly the pentateuch, is a redacted version of events, which is why I prefer to explore the source material for a fuller understanding.

A consequence of the edited versions, no doubt.

But there is Adam or the adammu, the Man created (I personally prefer an "earthling" translation), and there was Adam the person; another consequence of editing.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

He's a bit more significant to that. And; I'm sure any statement has to be cleared by whatever constitutes "the Vatican". So; I don't see anything wrong with that statement.

My question is what the aim of a Vatican astronomer is. I know that religion has been struggling with the conflict of science vs religion. My assumption is that this person is more of a science ambassador of sort. Somebody who is just trying to frame the science rather than explain the science so that it doesn't destroy the faith by direct conflicts to what was written.

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

The quote I heard on the radio last night relating to this story was something like "to deny the possible existence of life out there would be to limit God's ability to create." I rather liked that idea.

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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

Well, I am happy that they are slowly moving away from the idea that the Earth is at the center of the Universe. I think they may be preparing the way for the possible discovery of primative life, right here in our own solar system. In another 100 years, who knows, they may actually accept Evolution.

They already do.

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

In addition to C.S. Lewis, James Blish's novel A Case of Conscience explores a similar theme.

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If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers.

Indeed. James Blish's work is perhaps an even sharper examination of the implications of the theological implications of the existence of aliens. Sadly, this site is not the place to talk about these matters (which, I admit, I find fascinating).

From what the BA wrote in his blog, I get the impression that some people are making a big deal out of this. They shouldn't. This was not an official statement by the Vatican. It is a personal opinion of the Vatican astronomer. Interesting, but it's not as if the Pope himself had written it in an encyclica.

I don't see why people are so surprised by what Father Funes said, anyway. Remind me again which part of the Catholic doctrine said there could be no extraterrestrial life...

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

Well, if you're taking what the BA said, "special creation precludes life elsewhere."

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

He attributes that doctrine to "creationists", which is a very broad term, but I get the impression that, when he uses it, the BA is thinking more of the kind of Protestant Bible literalists you find in the US.

If the Catholic version of "special creation" truly implied no aliens, then the Vatican would never have allowed Father Funes to say what he did publicly. They'd certainly not have published his words on the front page of "the official Vatican newspaper"!

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

"Special creation precludes life elsewhere."

I can think of very strong reasons for rejecting special creation, but I think its opponents do themselves no favours if they assert that it implies something that I do not think is an inevitable consequence of the idea (whether or not some of those who hold to special creation also assert the uniqueness of terrestrial life).

Perhaps, but the immediate preceding sentence in the same "paragraph" the BA is speaking about what the Vatican thinks.

No matter, his thoughts on it are more quips than consideration, even "seriously."
There are only 8 papers on UFOs released by the UK, not "hundreds of cow mutilation stories."

Like so many things, the Vatican has had to alter and revise its stance to keep up with the times.
Aliens are hip.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

This is not the first time a Vatican official has spoken on the subject:

Here you can read Msgr. Balducci's thoughts from a few years back.

christiananswers addresses the question as well, pointing out that no biblical statement excludes the possibility; to the contrary it points out a few references which support life in space.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

Astrobiology and religion have a lot in common. They both believe in things that haven't been proven with supported facts, only speculations.

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All moderations in purple.

You ain't nobody 'til you've been banned.

Obviously they are anticipating the discovery of interstellar life. Wouldn't the evangelical mission require they then fund mission to save this life, fortunately perhaps not necessary if that extrateterrestrial life was exempt from the original sin.

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plenty of woo, at the hotel hoagaland...

Similarly, the Church has come to accept BBT because it too is creation ex nihilo.

Astrobiology though, has been called a science without a subject.
Religion quite clearly has a subject, many of them.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

Indeed, which is what brought to mind a "planet hopping Jesus."

Then again, as Msgr. Balducci pointed out:

"The second, with whom I want to close this paper, is the great stigmatized Capucchin Padre Pio, who was beatified by Pope John Paul II on May 2, 1999 and canonized on June 16, 2002. From St. Fr. Pio, the following dialogue is documented and officially published by the Cappuchin Order:

Question: Padre, some claim that there are creatures of God on other planets, too.

Answer: "What else? Do you think they don’t exist and that God's omnipotence is limited to this small planet Earth? What else? Do you think there are no other beings who love the Lord?"

Question: Padre, I think the Earth is nothing compared to other planets and stars.

Answer: "Exactly! Yes, and we Earthlings are nothing, too. The Lord certainly did not limit His glory to this small Earth. On other planets other beings exist who did not sin and fall as we did."

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill