I'm doing an article in form of slides in Powerpoint about a hypothetical inorganic chemistry that could be similar to carbon chemistry in many ways. The article is called An inorganic dream. In this article there are some texts explaining the right environment for such inorganic form of life, that would be in an ocean of water mixed with about 35% of ammonia at low temperatures (about -50°C) and at pressures above 3atm. To such chemistry exist, there should be low or lack amount of carbon. Maybe that inorganic chemistry could interact with carbon molecules to form even complex.

But in the article, all molecules except in the last slide are complex, somewhat similar to amino acid, nucleotides, carbohydrates and other types, all inorganic chains of phosphorus bonded with nitrogen and oxygen, sometimes bonded with sulfur, boron and some other elements. The last slide of the article is the reaction of, for example, amino acid with aminophosphorus acid.

My idea is based on some articles I read about polymers of nitrogen-boron and nitrogen-phosphorus complexes, but these articles are not related by creating artificial life. So someone had to make it, and it was I. Here are some very interesting slides:

http://i35.tinypic.com/wkpslk.jpg
http://i38.tinypic.com/345j7yu.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/2czos3m.jpg
http://i33.tinypic.com/1h81sj.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/easg86.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/3354bvd.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/wpkip.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/2r3krdh.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/2ptaqki.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/2bppg7.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/2v2w0mt.jpg
http://i38.tinypic.com/2dinfxt.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/348ohav.jpg
http://i33.tinypic.com/2ykdkk9.jpg
http://i33.tinypic.com/fy0tuu.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/2qkj7nk.jpg
http://i38.tinypic.com/2ng8jk0.jpg

And much more in my article, including many inorganic rings, sugars, sulfur and boron compounds, transporters of minerals, etc... If you want I'll show them later.

To finish, here's the method I have in mind to make inorganic artificial life:
http://i37.tinypic.com/a29fft.jpg

All this theory is a mixture of ammonia-boron-nitrogen-phophorus based life. What do you think? Is it better than silicon-based life theory?

This thread needs a warning enio Any chance you could adjust the formatting?

Are you talking about the size of pictures?

I would say he is, because it is difficult. Lot's of scrolling left/right is needed.
Can you place the image in a link to somewhere that can be opened independently so it can be resized as the viewer sees fit?

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

I will reduce the size of images soon. If the image be too small to read, yes, I'll put a link to the images. Be patient. So, what about my idea of life based on rings of phosphorus and nitrogen?

Yes!

Otherwise, I find this interesting. How stable are those rings?

you mean like this?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0814150630.htm

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-work in progress--

This is on a different scale I think. It talks about dust rather than molecules. But it's really interesting in it's own right...thanks

thanks yourself


I found it looking for information relating to one of my own ATM ideas.

glad you find it interesting.
Cheers!

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-work in progress--

Hey, what ATM idea? Is it on BAUT? If not, when can we see?

How do you propose to get large amounts of reduced phosphorus in the absence of carbon? Note that carbon is the fourth most abundant element in the universe (going by atom count), following hydrogen, helium, and oxygen. Silicon is at #7, phosphorus is at #17.

It's an interesting idea as a basis for synthetic life...though our greater familiarity with carbon based chemistry would probably make that the preferred approach.

I only want to show what could be done without carbon in a reducing environment of water mixed with ammonia. I don't know if such substances will or would be stable at earth-like conditions, certainly not. But maybe in a reducing atmosphere at higher pressure and lower temperature should be stable. If it's true, the chances to find planets with life will increase at least a bit.

Obviously it would be better if carbon is present, since reducing environments tend to be richer in carbon than oxygen or any oxidant. But I think that organic molecules formed in a reducing world, like Titan but hotter would be different than earth-like organics. And since the environment is a mixture of water and ammonia, it's certainly that substances used in these worlds will be different.

Well, if you think in a cold world rich in silicon and poor in carbon, maybe the molecules shown will form in that solution. Or even it could be artificial to adapt these lifeforms in colder worlds to serve has slaves of humans.

Seems like a major piece of work. Just how many molecules have you constructed? If you can sort out the formatting, or provide links, I wouldn't mind having a look at more.

I don't have the chemistry background to really appreciate this, but it looks like a lot of work and imagination has gone into it! I'm looking forward to hearing more about it!

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"Many of those people are not getting four when adding two and two; many of them aren't even getting five or twenty-two. They're getting potato."
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Life does need a mutation rate to evolve...Any ideas concerning the formation of enols and interconversion of bases allowing for genetic mistakes? Also, the first thing that came to mind when I saw your 'quasi-ribose' 'sugar' is that the molecule would be unstable as it would react with (water?) in order to form a more stable conjugated ring (if thats even possible with oxygen and phosphorous). But hey, these are low! temperatures and I really have no idea what would happen. Very interesting read.

Many rings I created have much oxygen because these substances are in a solution of 65% water and 35% ammonia. Because of the higher amount of water compared to ammonia, such phosphorus rings would in most cases have more oxygen than nitrogen.

I don't know if I'm true but I think that phosphorus has similar affinity to oxygen and nitrogen. Nitrogen have for hydrogen, boron, sulfur, phosphorus and some metals, like copper, I think.

You may see that I always combine nitrogen with boron, hydrogen, phosphorus and sulfur. I don't combine phosphorus with boron and sulfur because I think the bond will be weak.

Soon I'll put all the slides of my article in the first post.

Many rings I created have much oxygen because these substances are in a solution of 65% water and 35% ammonia. Because of the higher amount of water compared to ammonia, such phosphorus rings would in most cases have more oxygen than nitrogen.

I don't know if I'm true but I think that phosphorus has similar affinity to oxygen and nitrogen. Nitrogen have for hydrogen, boron, sulfur, phosphorus and some metals, like copper, I think.

You may see that I always combine nitrogen with boron, hydrogen, phosphorus and sulfur. I don't combine phosphorus with boron and sulfur because I think the bond will be weak.

Soon I'll put all the slides of my article in the first post.

Hey, you've linked the slides. Thanks.

I put links to all slides of my article in the first post. Enjoy!!!

I just remembered this online book (courtesy another member, eburacum45).

You might find it interesting: The Limits of Organic Life in Planetary Systems

I'm still digesting this and have a limited knowledge of chemistry, but thatnks, it's a really interesting read.

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enio, there are lots of slidesharing services on the web
(try this one for example)

Mercury [metal] is a fluid on earth and is deadly but on a planet [like Mercury]with a slightly high tempertures it might be as water.

Mercury as a planet, mercury would like water and rain.


So far non indications of a mercury lifeform even primitive mercury bacteria.

Nitrogen and P may make complex compounds but most probable is ammonia which can harbour complex life forms. It is very similar to water in harsh environments as present on saturn. And silicon based life forms. It can make complex compounds like carbon. U can also check it in my homepage.

It's very intriguing. Definitely better than silicon-based "life," since Si doesn't really do anything interesting. My inorganic chemistry background isn't strong enough to critique the likelihood of the synthesis and stability of the bigger nitrogen-phosphorus-oxygen compounds, but we did study some boranes and metalloboranes on one class I took, and boron can make some interesting large molecules.

If you can find a way to work some coordinated transition metals in there some place, that would be a plus, since many proteins use metal groups to help push electrons around.

Nick

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Nick Theodorakis

Is there anywhere in the solar system that has those conditions?

Does this form of life (what are we called it?) require the absence of carbon to work or could it evolve if the conditions were more suited to it than carbon?

For the molecules I made, yes, carbon should be absent. Because the presence of carbon would make it more similar to our molecules, but that not mean equal to our biochemistry.

The second version will be more "realistic", since carbon will be part of such molecules. But such substances will use more sulfur, phosphorus, boron, nitrogen, etc... They will be in a water-ammonia mix, so more variations of organic molecules. The more variation, the richer life can be.

So in what fundamental ways, other than needing an ammonia solution to emerge, would such life differ from straight up carbon life?

Even without ammonia present, life in other planets will be at least something different from Earth. Even in biochemichal level. For example, the genetic material could be different from RNA or DNA. Maybe PNA? And may even have different nitrogen bases than that of our DNA and RNA.

Certainly life in another planet will use different types of amino acids. Maybe they will use some of our amino acids, but also use different ones. We use 20 amino acids, but in nature there are (I think) more than 150 different amino acids.

For example, in a planet where the oceans and lakes have sulfurous water and some sulfur compounds in the air, I'm certain that life WILL be different than on Earth, due to the increased amount of sulfur in environment. The same could be applied to arsenic, phosphorus, chlorine, fluorine, boron, selenium and uranium.

So life in this hypothetical world will make more use of sulfur than we do. Could also be phosphorus, if this element is present in high proportions on such planet.

Many people think that life must be identical to that of Earth. But I say no. For example, if Titan really have a underground ocean of water/ammonia, I'm certain that life will be different there, both because of amount of energy, types of chemicals present and temperature.

Substances that are unstable at room temperature could be stable in colder worlds. And very rigid substances could be more flexible and become used in hotter worlds.

Enio, I've heard the idea bandied around a few times that nonpolar solvents, like liquid methane, could support a life like chemistry that used hydrogen bonding between complex organic molecules to hold itself together. However I've never come across anything even close to a detailed description of how such a thing would work. As the only person I know who is actively working on alternate biochemistries I'd like to ask: please could you enlighten me or point me in the direction of more reading on the subject?

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For me it's enough for the garden to be beautifull; why do so many want to see fairies at the bottom?

"Many of those people are not getting four when adding two and two; many of them aren't even getting five or twenty-two. They're getting potato."
Gillianren