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If modern evolutionary theory is correct, the only ways for a species to stop evolving are:
1. To become extinct. 2. To cease to reproduce (which for all intents and purposes is equivalent to #1). 3. To evolve into a form that relies exclusively on clonal reproduction (but only assuming that the clonal progeny is free of genertic errors). 4. To cease to be subject to selection pressure (which for all intents and purposes is not possible). I would also second what Gillianren said about "negative" traits. Positive traits improve survival and fecundity. Negative traits impair survival and reproduction. Whether those traits meet humanity's subjective evaluation of what should be considered "positive" or "negative" is another matter entirely. I leave it to the reader to examine our present society and make generalizations about which traits are being selected for and which are not... (which segments of the population have the most children? Which traits correlate with lower life expectancy and fewer children?) Personally, on my more pessimistic days, I presume that we are evolving toward rather lazy, dimwitted, fat creatures with a propensity for abusive behaviour among adult males. Other times I am slightly more charitable - but only slightly. On the bright side, we can count on evolution to be self-correcting. Which is to say, that should humanity ultimately evolve to a point where we no longer have the wherewithal to sustain the institutions and technology upon which we relied to allow us to evolve into that state... Sheki |
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Given proper nutrition and medical care throughout life, the general consensus among anthropologists is that "man" from hundreds to thousands of years ago would overall have had greater genetic fitness. The gene pools of those times would be far healthier than our existing one. The evolution of man nowadays is virtually (if not totally) up to us now. Many argue that the widespread propagation of bad recessive genes is "devolving" us, or at the very least undoing the work of natural evolutionary processes. I'm a firm member of this camp, possessing many such "devolved" traits myself. Boo! #-o |
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Controlling the direction of evolution has been done for millenia by breeding animals and plants. We can perhaps do it more efficiently now. Mistakes might have bigger potential for bad outcomes but successes also have bigger potential for good outcomes. I think the more we learn in genetic science the more we will advance as a species no matter how we use it. We face hazards with our impact on the environment, on weapons development, in genetic manipulation, and with our use of resources. At the same time we have many benefits from those same developments. Even nuclear weapons development has created a deterrent to large wars for a time, though whether that will always be the case is certainly questionable today. I see no reason genetic science is any more or less hazardous than other technologies. It certainly has promise for incredible medical advances. Back to the evolution question...I reiterate, evolution mechanisms march along. Whether the genetic changes result in more diversity within a species or result in new species is the result of external influences acting upon those genetic changes.
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For every medical intervention that stops a genetic based illness from ending a life prematurely, we maintain that much more genetic diversity in the gene pool. We know that genetic diversity plays a role in species survival. When some major environmental change occurs that threatens survival, the more diversity you have, the more likely there is for someone to have a genetic makeup that survives the change. Lack of diversity in food crops that have been bred to produce more has been one of the setbacks since such crops are more vulnerable to being completely wiped out by a new disease. Some people are on a campaign to save biodiversity in crops by maintaining seed banks of as many varieties as possible. You have a set back....you go forward again.
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Anyway, if I were going to make a statement most mutations are harmful, I want to do the actual calculations first. Perhaps they have been done? And how are you pinning extinction on evolution as opposed to pinning it on external forces evolution was unable to overcome?
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Gillian "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'" "You can't erase icing." "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!" |
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Humans do not seemed to have changed very much over the last ten thousand years.
Ten thousand years from now humans may well have split into hundreds of different species, living in different environments on and (probably) off the Earth. Some people call ths autoevolution; self directed evolution is more accurate. If this occurs, evolution will certainly not have stopped. But will there still be natural selection in such a diverse world? Yes, if we decide that it is desirable. A new artificial species of humans (perhaps Merpeople, for example) would have to survive in the face of evolutionary pressures; but in many, if not all cases, constant planned adjustments to the genome will be more important than natural evolutionary selection of the fittest. I can imagine the creation of vast gene banks, which ensure that traits are never entirely lost (but they might instead go out of fashion). However if a population of humans (of whatever kind) decide to opt out of autoevolution, they will experience the same sort of evolutionary processes that we have experienced in the past. In all probability. if these hypothetical new human species were left to evolve without interference, it may become apparent that many would not be viable in the long term.
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Currently, man is not following selection pressures from normal evolutionary processes. And when a population is no longer subject to such pressures, you get individuals that... 1. normally would have died from genetic ailments before attaining sexual maturity 2. attain sexual maturity, but would normally never be able to conceive children due to genetic ailments What either of these scenarios leads to is propagation and enhancement of deleterious traits within the target population. Which is what we’ve been seeing for quite some time now. A veritable nest of dangerous recessive and/or rare dominant traits is popping up out of the woodwork, and doing so at an alarming rate. There are very few checks in place anymore, and most are manmade (i.e. genetic counseling). Quote:
With man, genetic diversity is not an issue, and is likely never to be in the forseeable future. We have NO selective controls driving our evolution currently in place, either natural or artificial. We’re a genetic loose cannon. This fosters remarkably high genetic diversity (and thus resistance to disease). That’s the only real advantage, and only advantageous to certain individuals. You can very easily simulate population genetics using computer models, fruit flies, or a honking big piece of paper and some crayons. When selective pressures against deleterious phenotypes are no longer permitted in such models, what you end up with (most of the time) are lower-fitness populations overall, and very high ratios of individuals possessing debilitating traits. This is what is happening in humans, most notably in developed countries. Populations with reduced genetic fitness, and high percentages of individuals with debilitating traits. And the condition worsens with every generation. That’s why we need to strongly support gene therapy research. That, or institute selective breeding. Most folks would frown on the latter course, nowadays. We're not corn. |
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Regarding mutations being mostly harmful or uesless, yes that's the "dogma" taught in modern biology.
Let me see if I can remember this right. Basic mutations occur via loss/addition/change of genetic material, either at the DNA/RNA amino acid level, or the allele/chromosome level. Messing with genetic information usually doesn't do anthing discernible or bad to the organism, 'cuz we tend to have: 1. a lot of DNA that doesn't seem to do much, or anything 2. multiple copies of genes 3. redundant DNA on our sister chromosome (except for boy humans with that pesky Y) So finding useful areas in the genetic code to "mutate" aren't quite so easy, and the more DNA you have in a critter, the harder it tends to be (I think ferns have more DNA than us). Master control genes are good places to hit if you want to see a mutation expressed. The geneticists in my department are particularly good at it. They foster all sorts of horrible mutations in fishes and plants... sick. |
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People die every day, many in the womb, many in childhood, many before reproducing, many during their reproductive years, and many post-reproduction - but leaving behind children that still need parental care. I would also note that there are nearly 6 billion members of our species, and just because you are living a cushy life in your little corner of the world does not mean that the rest of humanity isn't stuggling for their next meal. So long as there is inequity in the world there is selection pressure. Sheki |
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I could have just as easily pointed out keeping a young injured member alive until they healed and later went on to reproduce fails to remove weaker members from the gene pool. However, naturally selected traits that increase survival of a group, also increase survival of the individuals. Quote:
I direct you to current research in genetics of the "CCR5 deletion" which affects a certain protein on the surface of white blood cells. This mutation first occurred several hundred (several thousand?) years ago in Europe and was believed to have been amplified by being a benefit in some way to plague survivors. It now affords the inheritor some resistance to HIV infection. Quote:
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I think the problem here is understanding the complexity of the human genome, the time scale on which human evolution occurs, the critical role genetic diversity plays in species survival, and the actual rate at which modern medicine is impacting the gene pool. I have wondered in the past how we as a species will progress in technological development given the high birth rate of people who live in under developed regions of the world. Then something comes along like HIV which disproportionately affects the third world. I am reminded that over crowding enhances disease transmission. So having the most babies is not necessarily going to mean intellectuals are going to be overtaken in the gene pool in the long run. It is possible but not inevitable. The process of natural selection and genetic diversity is not a simple one. (No claim here, BTW, that there is an inherently smaller intellect in the third world, just that more babies vs smarter babies is a possible genetic trait that natural selection processes can be acting on.)
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However, we're still fairly certain that most of the protein-making genes comprise only limited portions of genomes. And that's the most important stuff. The other DNA... theories and recent research studies abound. Much of this DNA is endlessly repetitive in sequence... AGCG-AGCG-AGCG over and over again. Some folks argue that the DNA is leftover material no longer used. Others claim that they act as protective buffers around the protein-making gene segments. Actually, here's a link that talks about the newest possibilities for junk DNA. http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/junkdna.html Don't take that article to heart, it merely outlines some current research. The consensus on these non-coding DNA regions is not likely to be resolved anytime soon. We still have no idea if most of this DNA does anything at all, we've just shown that some portions do. Regarding DNA replication from generation to generation, let me assure everyone that changes very much do occur, on a continuous basis. The DNA you possessed at childhood is not the same as at age 80. The most significant change in your DNA is the shortening of your telomeres. Telomeres protect the protein-coding genes; they’re repetitive “junk DNA” segments of TTAGGG (and AATCCC). Anyway, you start off with a lot of telomere in your cells, and steadily lose the stuff every time your cells divide. Losing telomeres is not considered a good thing. Your DNA is subject to good old fashioned mutations too. Here’s a pretty thorough link describing all the fun ways you can and will thrash your genetic code. At the bottom, there’s a listing of self-healing techniques. The ability to self-repair is one of the critical hallmarks of DNA; we’d all be screwed else. Self-repair is by no means perfect, however. Mutations creep in that aren't corrected, all the time. But like most mutatations, they don't seem to do anything. http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~bethmont/mutdes.html Dang, I should bookmark this site. It’s an easier read than the stuff in my office. Lord I hate genetics... |
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Let me try to enhance on some of your excellent counterarguments beskeptical. I apologize if you interpreted some of my comments as insulting or demeaning... they were not intended to be. I don’t use smilie faces nearly as much as I should... here's one. :P
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Sociobiological traits like parental care are very tricky to pin down at the genetic level, so it’s very difficult to measure them within evolutionary contexts. But remember, parents aren’t thinking of their youngs’ genetic fitness when they protect and nurture them; the parent is “thinking” only of propagation of its own genes. Those genes can still be “bad”. And in many animals, social altruism is a learned behavioral trait, not a genetically inherited one. Remove the learning context, and the altruism often goes with it, or it’s made far less effective. That’s what happens with isolated humans and apes. Their genetic fitness may still be perfectly fine, but their behavioral fitness might not be. Quote:
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Here’s a cutesy article from some psychiatrists, talking about bipolar disorders from an evolutionary perspective. Everything they’re saying falls into line with modern theory. http://www.psycheducation.org/depression/fitness.htm Here’s one excerpt that explains loss of genetic fitness in a specific context (bipolar disorder): Quote:
There are many diseases found throughout the world which are stymied/attenuated by particular genetic resistances... folks that inherit such resistances have higher genetic fitness. Folks that take vaccinations to ward off the disease may/may not have the resistant genes, and they very likely no longer face selection pressures to maintain such genes. Therefore the gene that favors the particular disease resistance is no longer favored for, and you suffer reduced genetic fitness (relevant to the disease). Take away the medical care, and the difference between folks that are fit/less fit become readily apparent. Quote:
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Regarding scale, there are two factors to contemplate, the global gene pool, and localized “breeding” gene pools. It’s the latter that is easier to simulate on the computer (fewer people), and in fact which mirrors human community structure more accurately. Despite our massive global population, the majority of individuals still interbreed within the regional/local level. People that propagate within smaller breeding groups (i.e. inner city slums, hierarchical castes, ethnic groups) can and do propagate deleterious genotypes much faster than in larger groups. For very small, isolated populations, the effects of such inbreeding are well disseminated. But the principle works the same in larger ones; it just takes longer to manifest. Take for example the relatively isolated (in terms of breeding) populations of lower-class, inner-city African Americans. There’s a sharp rise in asthma being reported from that moderate-sized demographic. Some of that rise is believed to be the result of genetic propagation of asthmatic genes (specifically those that cue into cockroach feces, which African Americans tend to be predisposed against). Unfortunately, pinning down asthmatic genes has been less than fruitful, so it’s impossible to directly test this. But it follows the simulation pattern quite nicely, and there aren’t many alternative theories (air quality is one). The problem with scale is that smaller breeding populations carrying a lot of deleterious genes can wreak havoc on larger breeding populations, when the two are mixed. In some cases, the deleterious genes simply aren’t present in the larger populations, in other cases, the genes are present but sufficiently rare and/or masked by other genes. Either way, you still end up with deleterious genes. Regarding impact to the human gene pool, you don’t need a significant phenotype expression in high numbers to sound alarm bells. If a population already sees that, it’s very likely far too late for a simple fix. Ecosystem health (which I study ad nauseum) works the same way... minor but persistent damages can be just as bad as major ones. With unchecked propagation of deleterious genes in one’s DNA, you get a slow but steady (and cumulative!) drop in genetic fitness. Sneaky minor changes actually tend to be worse, ‘cuz you’re less likely to notice their inception and spread. This is called “Shifting Baseline Syndrome” in the ecological community, and it’s nasty stuff. There are two common examples of genetically-based ailments that I will touch on, that do get overhyped in the media. Allergies, and Vision. Vision. Most of the common vision maladies in people are genetically based. Strabismus, amblyopia, myopia, hyperopia for example. There’s a huge upswing in myopia popping up in developed nations, but most of that has been found to be due to watching TV or hitting the books. NOT genetic pooping out in the general population. That doesn’t mean that our eyeball genes are still following natural selection pressures to stay in tip-top shape, but we’re not all going blind in fifty years (due to genetic degradation) either. Allergies. This is tougher, as it’s strongly based not just on genes, but the environment. Allergies are reported on the high upswing throughout the world, mostly in western nations. Increasing problems with air and water quality is thought to be the major contributor here. Many allergies are genetic in origin, and something like 20-30% of the world’s population carries allergy genes. Many of these genes are “atopic”, inducing immediate hypersensitivity. Most people don’t consider their “atopic risk” when they bear children, for the simple reason that even the worst allergies currently known are medically treatable. That’s perfectly valid, but it also nullifies any evolutionary selection pressures to keep atopic genes as few as possible in offspring. Fortunately, not a single doctor will advise against rearing children due to atopic predispositions... of course those doctors will assume there’s proper medical care also. There’s a lot of allergies that can kill ya’. Ugh. Quote:
Looks like I got to rambling. Oh God this is bloody HUGE... I didn't mean to write so much garbage. I don't even LIKE genetics. #-o Be merciful, oh BA viewers! I'm on a lot of caffeine! |
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Can one become addicted to message boards? What's the prescribed treatment? |
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I think the reason why we have slowed down evolving or stopped completely (which I doubt) is because there is no more environmental pressures to make us evolve, the environment doesnt force us to change we now have the ability to force the environment to change.
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Archman wrote:
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Anything that influences an individual's reproductive success is selection pressure. It need not even be terribly obvious, as even very small, seemingly innocuous advantages can have a huge influence over geological timescales. For example, consider two groups of people -athsmatics and non-athsmatics. If their reproduction success is even only slightly different, say 1 or 2% (ie. 1 or 2% of athmatics not reproducing, or having fewer children for some reason (say they died of an athsma attack before reproductive age, or they couldn't become captain of the football team, etc)). That is a significant disadvantage. Quote:
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http://anthro.palomar.edu/synthetic/synth_2.htm As noted in the Hardy-Weinberg list of the seven prerequisite conditions for stopping evolution, you have only identified one: 1. The elimination of natural selection However, as identified above, I dispute even that claim. It might be argued that humanity is no longer subject to Natural selection, if it could be shown that humanity was in concious control of the selection pressures that it places on itself...but even then it would still be subject to selection pressure, just not natural selection pressure. (However, given that natural selection would have given rise to a creature that can choose its own selection, could we really separate our own concious selection decisions from those of nature?) You also seem preoccupied with the "runaway" population growth, and the proliferation of individuals with deleterious genes. However, even this is predicted by evolutionary theory. Take a population, provide it with unlimited resources and the population will explode, with all members participating to a great extent and producing offspring like crazy. Once the resources are gone, or the population has exceeded the carrying capacity, that is when the serious competition starts. This is all part of evolution, not just the cutthroat competition at the end. Elsewhere you noted that you did not know any biologists that think humanity is still subject to selection pressure. Note that this is an argument from authority. Even worse, an argument from pressumed authority. It prooves nothing. And for the record, you now know of one. Sheki |
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As a paleontologist I have to point out that evolution isn't magical or spiritual but very simple: the perpetuation of genetic material. Those with the most viable offspring that in turn reproduce will determine future human evolution.
The myth from science fiction movie, etc. is that brains become bigger, limbs atrophy, etc. This all assumes that people with bigger brains have more offspring who in turn have more offspring...etc. Ask yourself this: in your own society, wherever you live, do the most intelligent people have the most children? an argument can be made than in the most technologically advances societies it is the less intelligent who multiply in higher numbers and therefore humans are becoming less intelligent and not more intelligent. The big wrench thrown into evolution is genetic engineering of various flavors. Is generic engineering performed by man part of Nature or outside of Nature? Is Nature a closed system that includes everything man does? Is there really such a thing as natural or artificial or is the dichotomy just a superficial division imposed my man? |
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Think about how many copies of a single bacteria are made per day. Millions or billions. Now think how many years it takes for the same number of new generations in a single human's offspring. See the different time scale. It isn't that evolution of humans is slower, it's that evolution of humans was always very slow.
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