Biofuel as a concept = Good idea.

Biofuel as they're currently implementing it = lame, half-donkey'd idea. But still better than fossil fuels-- marginally.

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
Illuminati's Razor-The most complicatedly evil answer is usually the most correct answer. - Fazor
"Every book is a children's book if the kid can read." - Mitch Hedberg
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

Primary to my consideration is what type of biofuel and production method are we talking about. I don't advocate the employment of any food crop or the conversion of any natural growth lands into single-crop, cultivated field agriculture.

I would, however, advocate lignocellulosic ethanol production utilizing multispecies cover plants grown and harvested multiple times a year on public lands (ie, highway medians and buffer strips, resevoir boundaries, etc.,). Additionally, there are algal species that are capable of being used for producing both biodiesel and ethanol, this is very productive but does require access to significant water supplies. This, can be provided by a dual-application process which utilizes sewage and grey water supplementally to grow the various algae crops, producing biofuel feedstock and treating/conditioning waste water that otherwise would require much more extensive treatment before it could be released back into the environment.

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Iyam what Iyam

Using existing waste to make biofuel requires no additional crops. Methane and methanol can be made from nearly anything organic.

__________________
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
Illuminati's Razor-The most complicatedly evil answer is usually the most correct answer. - Fazor
"Every book is a children's book if the kid can read." - Mitch Hedberg
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

Cellulosic ethanol has a certain appeal without some of the detractors mentioned.

I like the biofuel development because it allows for a shift away from middle-eastern dominated oil in a realistic-timeline. Unlike solar, it is a technology that developing nations might reasonably employ that allows a return on investment to the country (solar requires purchase of sophisticated equipment from the first-world: anyone can build a still (admittedly they also have to buy the enzymes from the first-world, but the farmers should see some return).

I don't believe it is the cure-all for pollution, but as a political-economic resource shift: I'm all for it.

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Talent develops in quiet places, character in the full current of human life.
- Goethe

Jump in with both feet!
- Me, indulging my inner eight-year-old

*** *** ***

"Are you a mad-hatter that just types what he wishes, or have you actually any physics training?"
Occam's Ghost to Grant Hutchison.

Have waded in with a resounding "no," I'm going to catch myself and add the following: Biofuels would be ok, IF:

1. We do not depelete any more forests.

2. We use the food to feed the hungry FIRST.

3. We can ensure no additional environmental impact (if the corn/sugar cane will be grown anyway).

Take care of those three big gotchas, including a ban on using artificial fertilizer on biofuel crops, and I'll look the other way.

But I'd rather see the excess land returned to natural forestation, first.

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I am Mugs, of the Alien clan of Usa, Nordamerica, a Terran, of Sol.

Mine: "Perception isn't reality. It's merely an abstraction thereof, and quite often not a very good one at that."

Heinlein's: "Staying young requires the unceasing cultivation of the ability to unlearn old falsehoods." "Freedom begins when you tell Ms. Grundy to go fly a kite."

That's why I favor using exisiting waste instead of purpose-grown corn. The stalks from existing crops will do nicely. And all the peels, stems, etc. that normally go toward holding up the ground over landfills. And sewage. We have so many products that burn, or that can be made to produce things that burn, that we do nothing useful with.

__________________
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
Illuminati's Razor-The most complicatedly evil answer is usually the most correct answer. - Fazor
"Every book is a children's book if the kid can read." - Mitch Hedberg
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

Very good points made in this old/new thread.
The responce of humanity to its farmers should
be "Do not waste our food on stupid ideas,
the Hells the matter with you?"

But it wont be

The farmers want more cash, they are free to
follow the money, if some go hungry thats
tough, tough, tough, tough etc.

The uninformed person thinks farmers plant
seeds and crops come like magic. A few details
of labour, fertiliser costs, transportation
have to be made clear. And that is "energy"
costs mainly.

The basic fuel for staying alive is food.
Everything follows. There are niche markets
agreed and the possibilty of fuel from "waste"
on farms is great. But not the fruit.

But for now food prices are going up we are
told. Damn.

As with most social decisions, the question of whether to pursue bio-fuels is a matter of available, reasonable options. Should we put our money into this or that?

I say develop the heck out of hybrid technology for transportation uses, and generate electricity with hydro and nuclear.

Couple that with decent planning for future land development and we should be ahead of the game for at least a little while.

Ask any college student if he'd rather spend money on a Playstation (or competitive equivalent), beer or food.

Food loses every time.

Okay, seriously:

We do not have a "food production" problem. We have a significantly imbalanced economic structure throughout most of the world. While some farmers in parts of Indonesia are switching from food crops to fuel crops, they are not likely to find much of an export market for their biofuel. However, should they shift from subsistence based farming to a cash crop, they can improve their lives considerably. For example, Brazil uses biofuel in its domestic economy to support its ability to export oil. This also benefits its poorest farmers:

Admittedly the cost of beer and liquor (and beef) is rising in the US due to corn-based ethanol production. However, using cellulosic ethanol will curb this rise and not price our beloved beverages and burgers above the average consumer's checkbook.

__________________
Talent develops in quiet places, character in the full current of human life.
- Goethe

Jump in with both feet!
- Me, indulging my inner eight-year-old

*** *** ***

"Are you a mad-hatter that just types what he wishes, or have you actually any physics training?"
Occam's Ghost to Grant Hutchison.

Hey, when I was in college, that was a no-brainer. I don't imbibe, and the only video game I play is Civ. Also, I didn't then even own a computer. (I did buy a fairly big TV, though.)

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

I used to drink at the local Mexican restaurant for the free chips and salsa. I didn't own a TV, much less a computer.

Somehow, I did however, find enough $$ to buy a motorcycle! Talk about fuel efficiency!

__________________
Talent develops in quiet places, character in the full current of human life.
- Goethe

Jump in with both feet!
- Me, indulging my inner eight-year-old

*** *** ***

"Are you a mad-hatter that just types what he wishes, or have you actually any physics training?"
Occam's Ghost to Grant Hutchison.

A couple of problems with using field waste as fuel feedstocks is that this removes the use of this to enrich the field-soil. This will mean the need to use more fertilizers and currently most fertilizers are derived from fossilized hydrocarbon feedstocks, and ultimately are adding previously sequestered carbon back into the environment. I've no problem with using some organic agricultural waste for this purpose, but for the most part, there are a lot of agricultural practices that we are going to have to modify and adapt if we are going to begin minimizing our reliance upon oil and gas, and still maintain high agricultural output.

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Iyam what Iyam

there are now hydrogen powered toy cars on the market, solar power and hydrolysis, tested on "something for the weekend" last weekend;

http://www.gearlive.com/index.php/ne...-car-05221517/
http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ref=technology

All we have to do now is scale the technology up or us down.

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Life is its own god.

Can you please ask the voices in your head to keep the noise down?

That´s it. Besides the ethanol program, it is now mandatory the addition of 10% bio-diesel to the regular diesel, to secure a market for those growers. Good for the environment, good for the people. It´s a fine example of government intervention.

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"Shut up and calculate" R. Feynman

Is there any forest in Iowa?

Some detractors fear for the integrity of the Amazon. But the Amazon is a nasty environment for sugar-cane. It can´t be grown there. Sugar cane needs a dry season to reach the productivity needed for the ethanol. Eighty percent of the Brazilain Ethanol is intensively produced in the state of Sao Paulo, in the southeast.

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"Shut up and calculate" R. Feynman

Bio fuels, using the current production methods, are a bad idea.

In the United States, a square mile of corn produces 65000 gallons of ethanol (net value). That's the equivalent of 48500 gallons of gasoline.

The United States consumes 140 billion gallons of gasoline a year.

We need 29000 square miles just to replace one percent of what we use in one year. That about the same land area as Maine or South Carolina. To supply the entire United States, you would need 2,900,000 square miles. The land area of the United States is only 3,500,000 square miles.

Even if we could get a ten-fold increase in ethanol output, the US would still need 290,000 square miles. (about the size of texas and lousianna). Probably do-able.

Interestingly, the American Great Plains used to be called The Great American Desert, because it was thought to be essentially a wasteland. Richest growing-soil in America, of course, but getting through the roots of the native plants took so much doing that most people did not, for quite some time, think it worth the effort. Now, there's very little of the original ecosystem left, because the settlers discovered just how good that soil is.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

That's why we've been talking about changing those methods.

As for the area numbers you gave, that's less than we currently waste on lawns and golf courses now.

__________________
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
Illuminati's Razor-The most complicatedly evil answer is usually the most correct answer. - Fazor
"Every book is a children's book if the kid can read." - Mitch Hedberg
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort