Geology not astronomy?????? What do you think extraterrestrial bodies are made of? You accept atmosphere science but not geology? And no volcanoes except on Earth? Whoa!

But back to psychiatry which as far as I know we haven't found any ETs that we can expand that science into just yet.....

I find Cruise's comments all too typical of those who believe themselves to have the expertise to evaluate a science they really only know a little about. Psychiatry may have had a 'later to adopt evidence based medicine' approach but I do believe they have made great strides in recent years to uncover just what those medications are actually doing and what is still needed to correct brain imbalances or deficiencies.

I suppose Cruise is unaware there could be something like a seratonin shortage just as there can be an insulin shortage.

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Democracy Now! - The lost art of investigative news reporting.

I like Brook Shield's response, "I think it's safe to assume Tom Cruise has never suffered from post-partum depression," or something to that effect.

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~~ ><>><> ~~ ><,,> ><,,> ...`;=;p d;=;' /\/\^/\ ^^ ^/\/\_
Democracy Now! - The lost art of investigative news reporting.

yeah, that was classic.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

*mebeingstupid*

Again, that's not astronomy, that's xenogeology. Nothing to do with astronomy. Totally seperate fields (almost). Just as space travel is totally seperate from astronomy.

Astronomy is about one thing: looking up at stuff in the sky. It has nothing whatsoever to do with geology or space travel or anything else. Certainly astronomers might be interested in what space travel can tell them about what they are looking at, but it isn't the same thing, and there isn't much direct overlap.

*/mebeingstupid*

Whoa I got off topic. I wasn't trying to argue that astronomy isn't related to geology or space travel or anything (but I did anyway for some reason:P), but that it is no different than Psychiatry. If you don't bother checking the mental health of your astronaunts some bad things will happen. How is that any less important to space travel than astronomy is? And therefore since space travel is of interest to astronomers, Psychiatry should be too, because Psychiatry is necessary for a successful manned flight.

*shrug*

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http://boincwapstats.sourceforge.net.../style:2/p.png

Greetings.

I have been tempted to read Dianetics but I have resisted so far. It's kind of finding a pile of brown stuff in the yard........you know what it is before you stick your finger in it. (But some of us do it anyway..........).

8-[

Regareds, tbm

be prepared. no joke. hucksters manage to say/write things that may seem sensible at first glance. they hope you are willing to suspend your disbelief just long enough to ask for more. they start slowly, reel you in a bit at a time, then sink the hook. before you know it, you're on oprah jumping up and down on the couches. in the end, even after you pull your finger out, it's still doody.

as you would expect, cults tend to focus on disillusioned people. what is strange, however, is that they also focus on intelligent people. i suppose the intelligent are able to rationalize things in a way the dullard cannot. they can create their own reasons for believing... maybe... dunno.

i nearly lost a brother to a cult a few years back. today, when they stop by to talk to him, he "plays with their minds" (take a guess which one that is...).

taks

my favorite part of the double standard that exists is when they complain if someone stars pointing out the obvious, massive holes in whatever they're spewing. Thirty two years I've been on this planet and to this day I cannot truly understand how their minds can honestly accept it.

When I figure it out.. I'll write a book on it. lol
"Doodynetics", by O. M. Hubbard

John

__________________
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."

--Ambrose Bierce

http://threelittleboxes.com

You have misquoted me, could you perhaps correct it? You need one more in there to fix it. Thanks.

I've replied to the geology thing in this thread in the general astronomy forum..

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~~ ><>><> ~~ ><,,> ><,,> ...`;=;p d;=;' /\/\^/\ ^^ ^/\/\_
Democracy Now! - The lost art of investigative news reporting.

Beskeptical, I'm not really sure it was necessary to start another thread on this particular topic, especially one that might negatively reflect on Gopher65. It took two complete reads through the whole thread, but i think there's a little confusion going here.

Gopher initially placed this thread in the Bad Television forum because he was still under the impression that BABBling was closed. While it was in that forum, he argued that Psychology is as much a supporting science to astronomy as geology, et al. It strikes me that the line was more than a little tongue in cheek. Yes, observational astronomy is perhaps the original and purest form of the disciplne (if you really want to be pure, chuck the telescope). But astonomy is a secondary science (i.e. it's not chemistry or physics) so it is, of necessity, based on at least physics and chemistry - same as geology, same as meteorolgy.

Psychology is a "soft" science - based on the observations of human behavior. Interestingly, this whole thread comes up because there is a basis to some psychological problems in chemistry (back to the big two), which Mr. Cruise doesn't accept. As others have indicated, the validity of psychology used to support space travel won't be debated, but the farther you get away from that, the harder it is to generate enthusiasm for discussion on the topic.

History should create the same problems, but for some reason doesn't. People have freely discussed the history of Star Wars, Terminator, the Cylons et al, simply for it's own sake in Bad Movies. Right or wrong, there is a public interest in these things, so we let it slide.

Lastly, gopher65 already stepped back when he wrote this
which should have been the last we heard of it.

Sorry if either of you take this as meddling, just trying to put everyone on the same page. I don't think a thread on astonomy overlapping with other sciences is bad per se, it's actually very intersting. I'd jsut hate to see it devolve into something nasty becvause of it's genesis. It was a rough June and I wouldn't want to see a rough July.

John

(no sig this time)

i thought we were beating up on tom cruise and scientology?

that seemed more appropriate anyway, and at the very least more fun!

them pesky thetans must've snuck in and corrupted the thread!

taks

Not that soft:
"...one of the most significant--and controversial--psychological studies of the 20th century...Milgram's obedience experiments teach us that in a concrete situation with powerful social constraints, our moral sense can easily be trampled..."

i'm not debasing psychology or any of the social sciences, nor implying that they are any less useful or valid. it's just a common distinction that will probably continue long past its' usefulness.

definition of hard science from psych central

regardless, it's a very interesting experiment that Milgram performed. Thanks for pointing me to it.

ETA: in retrospect, the terms "natural" and "social" are probably more descriptive, anyway.

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"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."

--Ambrose Bierce

http://threelittleboxes.com

Psychology and psychiatry are newer sciences than general medicine. They are also a bit harder to study as the number of variables to be weeded through is tremendous. But progress is being made.

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Democracy Now! - The lost art of investigative news reporting.

You know what offended me even more? When Tom says "You don't know the history of psychiatry. I do"

Up until that point, I was willing to cut Tom some space for all his craziness, as simply being just excited to have a new movie coming out and a new girlfriend to boot. But now he has gone too far.

Writing this, I realize Tom is just being the typical woo-woo. So far, all the woo-woos I've seen have one thing in common - they all claim to be more knowledgable than the people who've actually studied the subject.

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here we go, the world is spinning
when it stops, it's just beginning

sun comes up, we laugh and we cry
sun goes down, and then we all die

Touched by his noodly appendage

Is it just me, or do movie stars just believe any d**nfool thing that comes along? (And $cientology is as d**nfool as they come.)

Now that's a definition that belongs in the dictionary!!!!!!!!! =D> =D>

It's not so much they believe it, it's just that they jump on the band wagon when:

1. Someone far cooler than them is doing it (Britney Spears - or (explitive deleted) as I like to call her - became a Kabbalist after Madonna)

2. It gives them an excuse to behave they way it does, whining "Its part of my beliefs" when backed into a corner

Oh yeah, and (explitive deleted) is/are Dianetics? It sounds like some sort of weight-loss drug

*Smoking hot model seductivly climbs out of the pool, wearing a bikini made from less material than a chair pad. She slowly toward us as we see side by side a picture of a comepletely different person who must weigh the same as a pregnant hippo. Suddenly, she whips out a small bottle, and sexily whispers*

SHM: Dianetix. Get yours today

(okay, I know its spelt ics but it looked cooler that way)

__________________
here we go, the world is spinning
when it stops, it's just beginning

sun comes up, we laugh and we cry
sun goes down, and then we all die

Touched by his noodly appendage

Insight, wisdom, and excitingly vivid imagery all wrapped in one shiny new(b) package. Geez, can we keep her?

(Incidentally, I'm pretty sure your acronym nudges the profanity rule. You'll want to edit it out, then read the faq rules for the specifics. I'd hate to see you banned on that sort of technical violation.)

[Edit: 'cause I speel guud.]

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And you, to whom adversity has dealt the final blow
With smiling [faces] lyin' to ye' everywhere ye' go
Turn to, and put out all your strength of arm and heart and brain
And like the Mary Ellen Carter, rise again.

I hate to be prudish but please don't compare movie stars to actual mentally retarded people. Retarded people cannot help their defects, and stars can

and moose...thanks. You really made my day :wink:

__________________
here we go, the world is spinning
when it stops, it's just beginning

sun comes up, we laugh and we cry
sun goes down, and then we all die

Touched by his noodly appendage

stars can't anymore... at least not once they've become "stars." that's the problem, whatever it takes to become an on-screen imitator totally pushes out the previous personality. they're shells, empty no less.

taks

good point taks
=D>
However, that still doesn't answer my question on what Dianetics is/are

__________________
here we go, the world is spinning
when it stops, it's just beginning

sun comes up, we laugh and we cry
sun goes down, and then we all die

Touched by his noodly appendage

I think that Dianetics is supposed to be the Handbook to Better Living, or something like this. Hardly anything worth reading from the pen of a second rate SF hack.

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I have grasped the bull by the tail and am lookin' 'im right in the eye.

Dianetics was/is a form of psychotherapy. It asumed that the mind stored "engrams" (distorted memories) of expreiences dating back to before conception (e.g., memories of the sperm swimming toward the egg; oddly, I don't think the egg stored anything, however).

Later in life, these engrams were misinterpreted by the adult mind, and caused aberrant or problem-causing behavior. A classic example given in the book was that of a compulsive shoplifter. "Dianetic Therapy" revealed that the persons mother had been regularly beaten by the father during gestation, with "Take that, *****" yelled during the beatings. That memory was stored, and acted upon by the subject.

"Therapy" cleared the memories and the shoplifting stopped!

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Standing on the shoulders of giants...

Umm okay...

but there's a big problem with that. Psychologically speaking, it's not the words, but the feeling behind those words that have an effect on people.

For example, if I shouted angrily at my dog "Toby! I love you!", Toby would not feel loved, but feel upset and confused, thinking he'd done something wrong, since he can't understand what I'm saying, but he understands the feeling behind it.

With the sperm, the sperm probably wouldn't understand the meaning of those words, but would probably understand the feeling behind those words as anger and rejection, so the child would probably try to be a pleasing, passive person

This is, of course, operating under the assumption that a sperm could actually understand feelings, since logically, if a sperm cannot understand feelings, then they certainly couldn't understand words

And of course, this assumption is wrong, so my whole argument is null and void

How did this guy come up with this in the first place??? Was he even that good a sci-fi writer?

(edited to add: what sort of therapy do they use anyway?)

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here we go, the world is spinning
when it stops, it's just beginning

sun comes up, we laugh and we cry
sun goes down, and then we all die

Touched by his noodly appendage

An Open Letter to Tom Cruise:

In fact, I do know the history of psychiatry, as anyone who's heard me wax rhapsodic on the intellectual sins of Sigmund Freud could attest. It is cluttered and colourful and full of failings, like any science you could name. After all, do we look down on geology because, early in its history, it felt the need to reconcile everything with an actual Biblical flood? No--it grows,develops, and improves, as psychiatry has done.

However, I who have been to more therapists than most can still admit that there are flaws. It is imperfect, as every human is different. Yes, I have known at least one person prescribed meds she didn't need. However, I have known any number of people who were better off on their meds, like Andrea Yates would have been. Each human brain is unique, and so what solves problems in one does not solve problems in all.

This, of course, is what makes psychiatry so much more uncertain than geology. You can examine a rock and know an astounding amount about it, about its formation and history. We understand rocks. We do not understand brains, though both psyciatry and neurosurgery pretend to.

Again, though, psychiatry is a true science, in that it learns from its mistakes. Lobotomy was a mistake, and we don't do that anymore. Many, many times, electroshock would be a mistake, and we wouldn't do that anymore--though you do not seem inclined to criticize "standard" medicine because electroshock was, a hundred years ago, the cure of choice by the quacks who used radiation to cure all ills twenty years later. Perhaps it is because you would have a much harder time convincing the public at large to steer clear of all modern medicine, though it is my understanding that your religion wants us to do that, as well.

You can go ahead and believe whatever religion you want to. That is your right, and it is a cherished right. However, your responsibility that goes along with that right is to allow others to believe whatever religion they want to. Most of us do not espouse faiths that require us to ignore branches of science. Yours is certainly not the only exception, but you are not in the majority of this.

If you really want to understand psychiatry, try actually talking to a mentally ill person. In fact, I'll make you a deal. I'll try your regimen of vitamins and excercise if, after six months of it not actually curing my problems, you'll pay for my meds after that.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Rumor has it that he... just felt like proving how depressingly easy it is to start a cult... er... "religion". So he did.

What was never clear from the peanut gallery is whether or not he actually bought into his own press, or if he was just pretending to keep the cash (and suckers) rolling in.

__________________
And you, to whom adversity has dealt the final blow
With smiling [faces] lyin' to ye' everywhere ye' go
Turn to, and put out all your strength of arm and heart and brain
And like the Mary Ellen Carter, rise again.

L. Ron was, of course, a science fiction writer. Somewhere, somehow, he got a bit "confused" as to what was real, and what was not...resulting in dianetics/scientology.

That's my "take" on it. It does amaze me that anyone would believe this "stuff".

edited to add...

That is the "rumor"...true or not? Who knows. I think that he was just nutty.

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

I think that Hubbard's hatred for psychologists and psychiatrists provides the hint. He was probably sent to quite a few of them sometime before creating his religion.

What you have to remember os Cruise is an OT level 2 or 3. He thinks he has Superhuman powers and intelligence. He knowqs he is right about all this as Scientology has told him he is. Hell, he has paid for enough Auditing to make him Clear and then he has done the full 'Bridge' to become an Operating Thetan.

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Obviously you've never read any of old L. Ron's books...the answer to your question is a resounding NO. :wink: