It was quite common in popular culture well before Jurassic Park. Try the early 1970s.

Plus it was common shorthand when I was learning paleontology back in the 1950s.

__________________
A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

Check out the ruins of and human remains in Pompeii and Herculaneum, two of the most civilized cities in the ancient world, and based on their architecture and artwork, which contained some of the most well-educated, if not most intelligent. These might not qualify as "fossils" per se, but if the pyroclastic flow had been mostly mud instead of ash, they certainly would have wound up as such.

Animals don't have to be stupid to get fossilized. They die where they die. If it happens to be in areas which are routinely covered by layers of mud, which then go through a sedimentary rock formation cycle, you get some fossils.

I expect that the areas in and around New Orleans over the next tens of thousands of years, or however long it takes the Mississippi mud to become sandstone, will yield some very nice homo sapiens sapiens fossils.

__________________
A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

Agreed. It's kind of fun trying to communicate with the ghosts of the past.

__________________
A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

So W.F. Tomba doesn't mind "T-Rex" but hates "hunter-gatherer"?

__________________
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

Here ya go:

__________________
A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

A high-tech dinosaur civilisation is the subject of Barry B. Longyear's novel The Homecoming.

So it's been done.

I read the short story the novel is based on, and IIRC most archaeological evidence, and the dino civilisation on Earth, was destroyed by a war, using weapons more powerful then nukes.

__________________
Join the Illuminati

Thank you.

Hmm, I've seen the show, I don't know that I'd call them all that civilized.

__________________
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

I almost started up another thread on the same topic - then I googled it and toseeked myself

Anywho, I think about this topic once or twice a year and I'm definitley on the side that if a 60 million year old civ existed, 99.999999999% of all traces were wiped out. (I'm also of the opinion that said civ did not exist, but its fun to talk about.

In thinking about what would be left, obtuse things come to mind. Wind Gaps that make no sense (and were actually large highway road cuts). Missing beds of oil and coal which were attributed to faulting or a facies change. In fact, the amount of Paleozoic coal and gas we have now (well, had) is probably the best example to illustrate that we are the first industrial civ that was.

Surprisingly, corpses (or lack thereof) do not bother me. I'm not sure how many of our cemeteries would survive, and the fossil record is very poor on certain environments - mountains, for example. So its possible to have lost whole genii, if not families of creatures. Its also possible to have a widespread belief in cremation - and there goes the bodies!

I'd argue somewhat for looking in caves for answers - but most caves are too young and wet. The few caves which are dry and have been around for tens of millions of years (i.e caves in the Black Hills or Venezuela) probably have not had entrances for that long.

I think that the only evidence we'd be likely to find would be in some hermetically sealed chamber buried under the moon.

__________________
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."

--Ambrose Bierce

http://threelittleboxes.com

Well, around here I use Happy End, which I buy at the local Penny Markt...

__________________
"Toward no crimes have men shown themselves so cold-bloodedly cruel as in punishing differences of belief." - James Russell Lowell

This thread needs to be moved to ATM. It's so much hogwash I can hardly stand it. A civilization creates enormous quantities of artifacts that can be found for millions of years after it dies. Weapons, buildings, roads, vehicles (canoes for example), and artifacts, especially burial artifacts.

Your argument, that all traces of such a civilization have been wiped out, is mindbogglingly naive. We find dinosaur nests. Think about it, a dinosaur scrapes together a ring of twigs to form a nest, and 70 million years later we can find it. We study the stomach contents of dinosaurs - similarly, if any dinosaur were wearing a necklace, paleontologists would notice. Any dinosaur with false teeth or capped cavities would be quite obvious. Any dinosaurs that had been buried in a ceremony would be obvious to scientists. With all the human grave sites, in 50 million years, you are far more likely to find a human fossil than a bear or a dear. You're more likely to find the foundations of a house or fossillized canoe than a bird's nest.

This is a case where the absence of evidence really is evidence of absence.

I wonder if anyone participating in this thread has read Toolmaker Koan, an SF story that deals with OP in an interesting way. If no, then I can recommend reading it, it's fun! If yes, how do you feel it impacts this thread?

__________________
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin | Meet the OOONG TOE.
"Your right to hold an opinion is not being contested. Your expectation that it be taken seriously is." -- Jason Thompson
'No, mad's when you froth at the mouf,' said Gaspode. 'He's insane. That's when you froth at the brain.'

Well, that's really unproductive and probably unnecessary. Anthropologists debate endlessly about whether a stone from 15,000 years ago is a stone tool or just a naturally broken rock that looks like a stone tool. They have problems figuring out if a charcoal layer is from a cooking fire or from a natural fire. And that's simply stone tools from 15,000 years ago. Sixty million years ago is a lot longer than that.

The higher up you go in the technology tree, the less likely it's going to last for a long long time. Buildings built a hundred years ago won't last as long as the coliseum which will fall apart long before the pyramids. But the coliseum will turn to sand long before it gets covered and lithified. And our concrete formations? They'll dissolve a lot quicker. Your canoe will deteriorate unless it's dipped into the La Brea Tar Pits, and if you wanted to think about an analogy, how many pieces of dino skin have we uncovered? We've gotten some impressions of skin and feathers - but actual skin? Maybe one or two if I recall correctly. Thats one or two instances from every living thing on the planet over the entire length of the dinos existance.

As I pointed out, i think its very unlikely that it *actually* happened, but its a neat science fiction-esque game to play, trying to figure out what circumstances would be necessary. You are, of course, not obligated to play. But I would gently suggest it's bad form to deprive other people of their enjoyment by denigrating them.

__________________
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."

--Ambrose Bierce

http://threelittleboxes.com

This statement (actually, your whole post but this statement in particular) shows a common misunderstanding about fossilization. Under normal circumstances *everything* will turn to dust before it's covered. Fossils are the exception. Fossils occur where there was a landslide, or a river changed its course, or a volcano erupted, etc.

Like the coliseum, an animal that dies in a field somewhere will not become a fossil. When you say "turn to sand" you're comparing erosion with fossilization and saying that because most things erode, nothing will fossilize.

Yes, it's true that the coliseum will not leave a fossil (I should say, it's likely that it wont - the foundations may leave traces), but this fact doesn't disprove my point that a technological civilization would leave fossils. Somewhere there is a group of Roman buildings that was buried in a flood or by volcanic ash. Water will leach through the wood and the bricks and leave the shadow that we call a fossil, and that fossil will last for hundreds of millions of years.

do you have a source for that statement? Your whole argument sounds remarkably similar to the logic used by creationists. They say that because scientists sometimes argue about some things, like the age of a fossil, that means that they can't possibly know anything about the past. That's what you're saying: because anthropologists sometimes argue about stone tools, therefore they couldn't possibly identify an advanced dinosaur civilization - only you, with your superior power of conjecture, and unburdened by the need to produce any evidence, can determine the truth.

I don't buy into that logic. If dinosaurs were walking around with necklaces and jewelry made of jade or bone, then we'd find the jade and fossilized bone remains. Some of their canoes would have sunk and fossilized. Also, regardless of what you think of anthropological controversy, a great many finds are unambiguous. Burial sites, for example, are pretty obvious.

How can you honestly believe that there was this great dinosaur civilization, but none of their buildings left so much an outline - yet dinosaur nests made of straw DID fossilize? How can you believe that none of their jewelry or artifacts or burial sites survived - yet gastroliths did survive?

What mechanism do you propose to explain the fact that skin imprints and footprints and gastroliths and straw nests did survive, but campfires and walls and burial sites and ornamentation did not survive? There must be some magical process that selectively turns technology to dust, but preserves the imprint of a dinosaur's skin.

Am I the only one that thinks this is completely crazy?

Nope. I'm with ya.

Dude, seriously... go step away from the computer and have a beer. Then come back and read this. Cause' you're likely to blow a gasket or something at this rate.

As for your first thing about the Coliseum, the funniest thing about the whole aspect is that the coliseum will never turn to sand as it is made of limestone (travertine). Its as likely to degenerate into feldspar as sand. (and here I'm thinking of your typical quartz sand and not just lithic fragments.)

And yes, I'm not saying its impossible for soemthing to survive, especially something small. Foundations are less likely IMHO, because they are large and would need to survive intact to have any meaning. Likely any that did survive would be interpreted as 'bedding partings' or contacts between different strata. And yes, there are lots of places where rock strata have nice sharp angles which could be (mis)interpreted as worked.

As pointed out before, the funny thing is that the lower tech (i.e. stone tools and what not are far more likely to survive than an Ipod or a wooden house). These are also the things which could be viewed as just natural objects which look like something worked.

Now, this nasty above business. I don't appreciate the name slinging here, especially when if you go back to my previous post you'll see that I don't actually believe this happened. In the previous post I wrote:

and then in the post previous to that I wrote:
so since it hasn't sunk in.. perhaps the tradition of shouting will help it sink into that granitic cranium: I DONT THINK THERE WAS A DINO CIVILIZATION. If that's not clear enough for you, may I recommend the following website:

http://www.learnenglish.org.uk/

As for your question about disagreement between archaeologists - look at any of the early work about Meadowcroft, Cactus Hill and Topper in South Carolina. All of them had two problems early on - the dates didn't match the tools. There were two hypotheses why this didn't work out - one the dates were wrong. Two, the tools weren't actually tools, just rocks that looked tool-like. These were easy to solve as the sites proved to be fairly rich in artifacts. But the disagreement did actually exist (and I suspect there are still some profs nearing retirement who just wont accept anything - there usually are.)

As for why higher technology didn't survive, the "magic" you are looking for is called 'chemistry'. Yes, things actually break down in an effort to reach their lowest Gibbs' energy state.

Oh wait, I'm informed that its possible that in the intervening paragraph and a half you may have forgotten the bold print so I ahve to provide it again:

THERE WAS NO DINO CIVILIZATION.

this website may help you to remember: (though I don't advocate it.. it's probably a scam)
http://www.memory-improvement-techniques.com/


The problem, if there was a dino civ (which there wasn't) would be that we're not looking for it. So we're going to miss the stones that look like tools and the beads with holes in them (or maybe some of the holes have broken or worn out - we sometimes only find parts of teeth you know). Foundation impressions will have degraded due to the lithological process or as soft sediment deformation, so they may not be jumping out at us, either. Higher technology will decay and erode, leaving only the chemical traces as a layer in the soil.

Of course, we've no reason to look for it. (because there isn't) The fossil record stops because of the asteroid before we get a likely candidate for civilization. Of course our knowledge of the record isn't complete. We're missing whole ecosystems because they are not preferential to deposition. But a technological civ would be world-spanning, and there's no signs of a civ there. In part because there's no sign of the energy needed to power said civ. But things like tool use? I honestly can't say. As others have pointed out, animals use tools. Took making is another story. So far I think the genus homo is the only one to have figured out that feat (and I'm going to qualify that by calling tool making more than just grabbing a nearby stick or twig. Tool making is an involved process where there are quality standards).


So anyway, tofu.. you've managed to take what should have been a fun little mental exercise and suck all the life out of it. The underlying theme - how to get technology to survive 60 million years - was the real question. Sadly, you were too wrapped up in being the 'righteous crusader' to realize that. I'll bet you're lots of fun at children's parties too, especially ones with magicians. (No Timmy, see the flowers were underneath his sleeve all along. He just used misdirection to distract you from noticing that. I'm sure that if you ask the magician nicely he'll repeat the trick over and over again until you see that its nothing more than deceit.) You'll understand if I don't invite you to my nephew's parties.

Oh, and if it isn't clear, I'm done with this thread. As pointed out above, I unearthed it for a little light-hearted fun. Clearly fun is not an option. We must be serious at all times or else...

__________________
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."

--Ambrose Bierce

http://threelittleboxes.com

I think you're the one who needs to relax.
I read your initial posts. And they were not lighthearted in tone. You seemed to be seriously advocating several ideas that Tofu soundly refuted.

Just don't wreck Santa Claus for me, okay.

Stephen Baxter's book, Evolution, speculated a bit on the beginnings of a dinosaur civilization. Wooden spears carved to a point would qualify as tool building and would likely leave no trace. Especially if it was just a small population of a particular dinosaur. We haven't dug everywhere - so what if we have a tool making dinosaur population of 1,000 that lives in a remote area of the world. Everything's made of wood and the population decides they're going to try their luck at ousting the T-Rex's from the area because they're killing all the big game. They lose, but the T-Rex's get to use their great toothpicks.

__________________
Need a creative signature. Space for rent.

Yes, a dinosaur civilization could have existed; in fact there are dinosaur civilizations still: Nursing homes.

(sorry, couldn't resist)

I think their Landfill sites would prob have survived.

__________________
All Moderation in Purple
To report a post (even this one) to the moderation team, click the reporting icon in the upper-right corner of the post:
─────────────────────────────────────────────
◄Rules For Posting To This Board ► ◄Forum FAQs ► ◄ Conspiracy Theory Advice ► ◄ Alternate Theory Advice ►

If Manhatten, London, Hong Kong, Tokyo etc ... eventually collapsed and were buried under sediment, eventually the geological layer that was one of these cities would become exposed through erosion (as dinosaur fossil layers are today).

Even after 100+ million years, the deposit would have unique characteristics that a future high tech civiization could interpret as an unusual layer containing alloyed metals, degraded petroleum lenses, and stone fragments from various distant locations (granites, marbles etc).

Depending on the aerobic, moisture and chemical environment, it is likely that some of these anthropogenic layers would contain fossils that would contain some evidence of advanced medical proceedures.

As we havent found anything like this, and unless you count the possibility of an intelligent species of dinos who used organic tools, as a civilization, then I must vote highly most unlikely.

Interesting...

I was having a conversation on this subject only the other day with my father. He is convinced that there was indeed a dino-sapiens civilisation. He finds it plausible given the length of time involved. But also had a story to tell me, that sort of confirmed this belief.

His mother was filling the coal scuttle one day, and dropped a lump of coal which broke open and embedded inside she found a silver ring. She kept the ring. But burned the lump of coal.

My immediate reaction: 'Where's the ring?'
He said that he does not know, it has been lost. So no evidence is available.

Nice story. I am not convinced. I think that she could well have been mistaken about where the ring came from. He insists that he is just retelling what happened. (well over 50 years ago now).

If there is any evidence or anomaly uncovered that points toward dino-sapiens - of course i would be willing to rethink this.

__________________
The most important mental attribute anyone can have is the ability to recognize when one's own comprehension of a topic is insufficient. Without that, one's knowledge simply becomes tautological: it is "impossible" for there to exist wisdom one does not already possess. - JayUtah

There is no light in space. - Moon Man

Artifacts in Coal?

Your Dad isn't Ed 'Man as old as Coal' Conrad is he?

__________________
All Moderation in Purple
To report a post (even this one) to the moderation team, click the reporting icon in the upper-right corner of the post:
─────────────────────────────────────────────
◄Rules For Posting To This Board ► ◄Forum FAQs ► ◄ Conspiracy Theory Advice ► ◄ Alternate Theory Advice ►

You owe me lost brain cells for having clicked that link.

You expected him to just hand it over? I don't think you realize how precious it is.

Ed has been round for as long as I can remember usualy to be found pestering the talk.origins usenet group among others.

__________________
All Moderation in Purple
To report a post (even this one) to the moderation team, click the reporting icon in the upper-right corner of the post:
─────────────────────────────────────────────
◄Rules For Posting To This Board ► ◄Forum FAQs ► ◄ Conspiracy Theory Advice ► ◄ Alternate Theory Advice ►

I guess Lord of the Rings jokes don't fly here.

Made me smile.

__________________
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin | Meet the OOONG TOE.
"Your right to hold an opinion is not being contested. Your expectation that it be taken seriously is." -- Jason Thompson
'No, mad's when you froth at the mouf,' said Gaspode. 'He's insane. That's when you froth at the brain.'

I was trying to come up with a clever comeback that fit the LOTR theme, but wasn't able to.

I definitely caught the reference, though.

__________________

Heh.. i'd better not show dad that link- it would only encourage him.

From the site;

Here are various views of the petrified human femur embedded in a slab of slate, or shale. Since the bulb ends which would extend the specimen's length were broken off, the femur belonged to a person who was approximately eight feet tall since a person's accurate height can be determined by measuring the length of the femur and multiplying by four.

__________________
The most important mental attribute anyone can have is the ability to recognize when one's own comprehension of a topic is insufficient. Without that, one's knowledge simply becomes tautological: it is "impossible" for there to exist wisdom one does not already possess. - JayUtah

There is no light in space. - Moon Man