Finished! (Harry Potter) - SPOILERS!

Eroica · #1 (**permalink**) 18-July-2005, 11:26 AM

SPOILERS!!!

Select text in quote-box to read.

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So Snape was a Death Eater all along and Dumbledore was a fool to trust him - a mistake which has cost him his life?

Wrong! At least I hope it's wrong. Otherwise Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince is a poorly plotted book - even more so than The Order of the Phoenix.

We know that Voldemort did not trust Snape. If he did, and he wanted Dumbledore dead, he would surely have gotten Snape to do it. A powerful wizard like Snape, one who is implicitly trusted by Dumbledore, should have no trouble catching the latter off his guard and hitting him with the Avada Kedavra death curse. But instead, Voldemort recruits a snotty-nosed sixteen-year-old to devise an elaborate ruse to get trustworthy Death Eaters into Hogwarts to do the dirty job - Death Eaters like Fenrir Greyback.
Dumbledore knows that his death is imminent. That is why he is so anxious to impart all that he knows of Voldemort to Harry. He knows that the time is close when he will no longer be able to do this; he shares all the relevant Pensieve memories with Harry; he discusses Voldemort's character, plans, tactics, etc; he gets Harry to get Slughorn's true memory concerning the Horcruxes; he even takes Harry along with him on a dangerous mission to let him see what sort of things he will have to encounter while searching for the remaining Horcruxes.
Dumbledore trusts Snape implicitly. This is the one thing he resolutely refuses to discuss with Harry. Clearly he has something on Snape which convinces him of the latter's fidelity. What that is we don't yet know, nor why he refuses to confide in Harry or any of the others. Harry believes at the end that Dumbledore was fooled by Snape. I don't. I'm willing to trust that Dumbledore knows what he's up to. When Harry once again questions Snape's trustworthiness, Dumbledore replies: "I have been tolerant enough to answer that question already ... My answer has not changed."
Conclusion. Dumbledore and Snape have planned Dumbledore's "murder" from the beginning. Dumbledore knows that he is not destined to kill Voldemort. Harry is. So he is prepared to give up his life if it means persuading Voldemort that Snape really has returned to the dark side. By killing Dumbledore in front of other Death Eaters Snape has done enough to sweep away any lasting doubts Voldemort may have had concerning him. Voldemort will trust Snape now as implicitly as Dumbledore did, and it will be his failing. In the final duel with Harry, Snape will turn on Voldemort at the crucial moment, giving Harry the vital seconds he needs to finish the latter off - just like Darth Vader in Star Wars (though surely Snape will not turn out to be Luke's - I mean Harry's - father!).

If it is Snape and Dumbledore's plan for Snape to "murder" Dumbledore in front of the others, this explains a number of things.

When Harry and Dumbledore return to Hogwarts after getting the Horcrux, Dumbledore sends Harry to get Snape. "Go and wake Severus ... tell him what has happened and bring him to me. Do nothing else, speak to nobody else and do not remove your [Invisibility] Cloak." Why does he do this except to ensure that he does not die in vain. He and Snape have been caught on the hop. Everything will have been in vain if they miss this chance. It is vital that Snape be alerted. Everything else is irrelevant.
When Malfoy, however, interrupts Dumbledore and Harry on top of the Astronomy Tower, Dumbledore paralyses Harry (who is beneath his Invisibility Cloak), allowing Malfoy to disarm him. Why does he do this? He and Harry together could easily have handled Malfoy, who's alone. Harry thinks Dumbldore is trying to save him. In fact, he's making sure that Harry does not interfere and save him. He knows that he can hold off Malfoy. He just has to hope that Snape will get there in time to finish him off as they planned.
When Snape is roused from his bed by Prof Flitwick, he stuns the latter but does not kill him. Similarly, when he finds Ron and Hermione outside, he sends them in to look after Flitwick, when he could so easily have killed them too. If he truly is a Death Eater, why does he kill no-one but Dumbledore? He even spares Harry at the end; in fact he saves Harry from being killed by the other Death Eaters, supposedly reminding them that Voldemort wants Harry for himself.

Of course, I have a history of getting these things wrong, and I had arrived at these conclusions before I read the last two chapters, so ...

Donnie B. · #2 (**permalink**) 18-July-2005, 01:10 PM

I agree with your analysis. I made certain predictions after reading Book 5 that are (superficially) discredited by the events in Book 6, but are still valid given the point of view in your post. (Needless to say, I arrived at very much the same conclusions independently.)

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This perspective also cast a whole new spin on Dumbledore's "plea" to Snape -- he was not pleading to be spared, but to be killed.

Another thing that's explained by this analysis is why Snape made the Unbreakable Vow to help Malfoy in the first place. If he and Dumbledore had already agreed to the plan, then there was no reason NOT to do so. And this is entirely plausible because Snape knew the details of the plan, and could have discussed it with Dumbledore, before the meeting in which he took the vow.

Of course, the evidence that Snape spared Ron and Hermione is irrelevant, since they had taken the Felix Felicis potion and would have escaped death regardless of Snape's intentions. Your point about Flitwick is still valid, though.

I'd also like to point out that we may not have seen the last of Dumbledore after all. We know that he's a very powerful wizard. He might have knowledge of a way to overcome death. There's a strong hint that this could be true in the funeral scene. And just where is Fawkes off to, I wonder?

gethen · #3 (**permalink**) 19-July-2005, 02:17 PM

I finished yesterday and I agree with Eroica completely. In addition:

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I think Dumbledore gave Harry a hint of what was to come when he made Harry promise that he would kill him (Dumbledore) if he ordered to. I believe he had made Snape give the same promise and knew that the time was coming.
I also think that Dumbledore knew Snape had promised Draco's mother to kill Dumbledore himself to spare Draco, since that was settled between them in advance. And Dumbledore also believed that there was hope for young Draco and wanted Snape to save him if possible.
I just don't buy Snape's being the villain either. Too obvious. And all that convoluted logic Snape used to convince Draco's aunt and mother that he was loyal to Voldemort just didn't ring true for me.

Eroica · #4 (**permalink**) 19-July-2005, 03:49 PM

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What compelling reason did Dumbledore have for trusting Snape implicitly? A reason which he couldn't divulge to anyone else, not even to Harry? I've been thinking about this and I've come up with a possibility.

We know that Snape was once a Death Eater, but something made him abandon the dark side and return to Dumbledore, something that meant Snape was finished with Voldemort for good, but without Voldemort knowing that this was the case.

I think Snape was in love with Harry's mother Lily Potter! When Voldemort murdered Lily he broke Snape's heart and turned him irrevocably against him. But because Snape's love was a secret one, no-one knew - except, presumably, Dumbledore.

This would explain why Dumbledore was so sure he could trust Snape, but why he couldn't divulge the reason to Harry.

Perhaps Snape and Lily even had an affair. Could Snape after all be Harry's real father? Surely not ... but they do both have black hair ...

Donnie B. · #5 (**permalink**) 19-July-2005, 05:42 PM

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I can't go that far. Harry's been told over and over that he looks exactly like his father, except for his eyes (which are like Lily's). Harry also inherited James' natural flair for Quidditch. I don't think his paternity is in doubt.

Another piece of evidence is that Dumbledore kept telling Harry that "love" was his secret strength. Perhaps he meant (in part) Snape's love for Lily, which led to his change of allegiance.

I might question why, if Snape was truly in love with Lily, does he so clearly despise her son? Maybe because Harry represents his failure to win Lily's heart, the triumph of his rival?

True or not, it's an interesting theory. There could be other explanations, though -- such as a family relationship between the Snapes and Potters.

Metricyard · #6 (**permalink**) 19-July-2005, 07:59 PM

I have to agree with this theory. If I may also point out..

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When harry is trying throw spells at Snape, Snape blocks his spells with ease. He keeps telling Harry that his mind is easily tapped, and tells him to learn to do spells without speaking. All in a pretty mean and nasty tone of course. Hope Harry can drop his blind hatred for Snape and see this.

Or Snape is really and truly a Death-Eater, and just wanted to insult him. I guess we'll find out in a few years.

gethen · #7 (**permalink**) 19-July-2005, 08:38 PM

Ooh! Good theory Eroica! That would explain a lot.

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Do we know for certain who arrived at the Potters and rescued the baby Harry from the debris of Voldemort's attack? Was it Dumbledore? Hagrid? Or could it have been Snape? That would certainly explain why Dumbledore trusted him so completely.

NASA Fan · #8 (**permalink**) 20-July-2005, 03:20 AM

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I've never liked Snape, and I still do not like him, but I sure hope that I am wrong about him, and that you are all right about a plan. Though I cannot claim to have had such thoughts myself, I think that all of you bring up good points.

Eroica · #9 (**permalink**) 20-July-2005, 07:20 AM

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Originally Posted by Donnie B.

I can't go that far. Harry's been told over and over that he looks exactly like his father, except for his eyes (which are like Lily's). Harry also inherited James' natural flair for Quidditch. I don't think his paternity is in doubt.

Yes, you're right. I was forgetting that. Guess I was letting my imagination run away with me.

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Originally Posted by gethen

Do we know for certain who arrived at the Potters and rescued the baby Harry from the debris of Voldemort's attack?

It was Hagrid, wasn't it?

Grizzly · #10 (**permalink**) 20-July-2005, 03:47 PM

Without divulging anything (because I'm too lazy to do the quote thingy).

The answer to the question "Why did he trust him?" has to do with what he revealed. Not the obvious that's revealed in the book, but how ultimately to defeat Voldemort.

Obscure enough?

Donnie B. · #11 (**permalink**) 20-July-2005, 06:56 PM

I'm thinking that by this far down in the thread, we can probably drop the quote-and-color technique for hiding our remarks. Anybody who's gotten this far must not be worried about spoilers...

Roy Batty · #12 (**permalink**) 20-July-2005, 11:48 PM

What!! you mean he...! then it was...! and then so...?!

just kidding.. I agree, I think the topic title was obvious enough 8)

I reckon the end of the 7th book will be Professor Plum, in the study, with the lead piping.

... I'll get me coat 8-[

Gillianren · #13 (**permalink**) 22-July-2005, 09:07 PM

well, I'm glad we're dropping the quote thing, because I don't know how to do it!

J. K. Rowling, on her website, says that Harry is definitely James's son, and those suggesting his father is really (for example) Voldemort have watched too much Star Wars. I'm paraphrasing, but that is actually pretty close to exactly what she said.

my neighbor Heather brought it over around 11 last night. I finished it at about 5:10 this morning. then I lay there and cried for a while. I think Dumbledore's really dead; I think it's part of the grief process to assume he's not, just as it was part of the grief process to assume that Sirius was still alive after the last book.

I like the theory that Dumbledore made Snape kill him, and I think that ring is the proof--remember that Dumbledore had it at one point, and Snape had it at the beginning of the book. now, I ask you--wouldn't they all notice that it was broken and "dead" if Snape had it after Dumbledore'd "killed" it? so Dumbledore had to get it from Snape somehow, and the only way for that to happen and both of them to survive would be collusion of some kind, and while Voldemort may have liked having a spy in Dumbledore's ranks, there's no way he'd've given up a Horcrux for it.

what's more, I think it might have been the Felix potion that made Ron and Hermione go for Snape--if what we're hypothesizing is true (and mind you, I said before book five came out that she'd never kill Sirius or Dumbledore, so I'm not particularly reliable), they were two people he'd never consider truly harming, whereas just about any other student might've been at the very least badly injured.

as to Snape being in love with Lily--well, of course he was! I've know that since Harry looked into his memories in the Pensieve! heck, I think that's half the reason for the rivalry between James and Snape. James didn't know it, of course, because that would have meant focusing on, oh, someone other than himself and Sirius. but I'd be reasonably sure Lily did.

I'm also very, very happy that she finally said for certain who the head of Ravenclaw was; it's never been made clear before. I'd suspected Flitwick, simply because he was the most logical candidate, but she never did say, and since I'd be a Ravenclaw, it was particularly irritating.

Donnie B. · #14 (**permalink**) 23-July-2005, 01:53 AM

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Originally Posted by Gillianren

well, I'm glad we're dropping the quote thing, because I don't know how to do it!

Easiest thing in the world.
Open a post window using the "post reply" button.
Click on "Quote" (in the row of buttons undet the "Subject" box). You'll see the start of a "quote" tag.
Click the down arrow beside the "Font colour" box and pick White. You'll see the tag that changes the text color to white.
Click the "Quote*" box. That produces the end of the "quote" tag.
Place your cursor between the two halves of the text-color tag and type your message.
Use Preview to be sure everything came out all right.

(It's actually a lot easier to do this than to describe it!)

Of course, if you know the syntax for the tags you can just type them in.

Yet another technique: type your message first, then highlight it, then click on Quote; repeat the process for Font color. This is a bit dangerous because you might forget and submit your post before hiding it.

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Yes, we knew Snape had a crush on Lily, at least. But I for one wouldn't have assumed that meant he was genuinely in love with her. However, Dumbledore would certainly have been able to assess Snape's true feelings.

In any case, Eroica's real point was that it was Snape's feelings for Lily that led to his defection from Voldemort, and that's an original speculation (to me anyway).

Hmmm... I thought Flitwick had been identified as the head of Ravenclaw earlier. Or did I just assume that when I read it in Book 6?

Chuck · #15 (**permalink**) 23-July-2005, 03:30 AM

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That wasn't Snape in the tower! There's such a thing as the polyjuice potion that makes a person look like someone else. I suspect it was Dudley, who has been lying low all this time while spying on Harry at home and not revealing his powers.

Eroica · #16 (**permalink**) 23-July-2005, 01:50 PM

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Originally Posted by Chuck

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That wasn't Snape in the tower! There's such a thing as the polyjuice potion that makes a person look like someone else ...

There's one problem with this theory. As Harry is chasing "Snape", he fires several spells at him that he got from the Half-Blood Prince's potions textbook. Snape recognizes them as his spells and reveals that he is the Half-Blood Prince. Polyjuice Potion might enable someone else to look like Snape, but they would hardly be privy to this sort of information.

Chuck · #17 (**permalink**) 23-July-2005, 03:11 PM

That means that Dudley is the Half Blood Prince?

Gillianren · #18 (**permalink**) 23-July-2005, 10:16 PM

mmm . . . I though it was very obvious that Voldemort was the Half-Blood Prince until that self-identification. could it have been Polyjuice Potion, only used by Voldemort? (I'm still not doing the quote thing. if anyone missed the big "SPOILERS" alert in the thread title, they can just suck it up.)

Ilya · #19 (**permalink**) 23-July-2005, 10:23 PM

My guess at the biggest twist of the seventh book:

Everyone who knows about the Prophecy made the wrong assumption. It is NEVILLE who is destined to kill Voldemort, not Harry -- although Harry will do most of preliminary work.