I think Snape may be doing what Dumbledore wanted him to do. I am not convinced that Dumbledore is actually dead. Recall the speach he gave Malfoy just before he died about how Voldemort couldn't kill him if he was already dead, and that the Order could protect him and his mother. I think that may have been a clue as to what was going on. Also, when Snape showed up, Dumbledore immediately started to plead with him. Why did he not assume that Snape was there to rescue him if this was not part of the "plan"? If there had been a moment when he realized that Snape had betrayed him I might feel differently but his reaction was immediate. I think his death was staged so that he could work undercover and Snape would be Voldemort's right hand man and a very valuable spy.

That won't work. Albus woulda revealed himself to Harry. Also, recall all the recollections in the ward in Phoenix Lament chapter. Albus is dead. Sorry Wolfe.

John L-

The exact definition of Legilimency is "the ability to extract feelings and memories from another persons mind" (that's from Snape BTW). So, I was partially right and you were partially right. I still don't see that as being useful in battle.

I don't see Lupin dying; he just got together with Tonks, so I don't think she would kill him off, though, I wouldn't put it past her.

RobWolfe-

Dumbledore has to be dead, Snape performed to the Unbreakable Vow, remember? If Dumbledore is not dead, then Snape would be dead, and last I checked, he was alive and kicking.

Whatever Legilimency is, I do not think it is a staple of Voldemort so much as it is a staple of Snape. The chances of Lupin dying in book 7 are pretty slim - I'd say about 18%. John L, I agree with your earlier assertion of Snape's Voldemort likeness, though I doubt that the ambush situation you described would actually happen.. Fraser, I like your comparison of HBP to the SW prequels. Matthew on that last post, everything well said!

Not true about the Dark Lord. He is supposed to be the world's best Legilimens. That was why Snape was supposed to be a good spy because he was a great Occulamens.

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...and we'll be saying a big hello to all intelligent life forms everywhere; and to everyone else out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together, guys...

If all this were true about L. Voldemort, Harry woulda been dead. I don't think we will see Voldemort using Legilimency in battle against Harry the way Snape did at the end of HBP.

Why woulda Harry been dead? LV didn't know the AK curse would backfire when Harry was a baby, and had no body or wand until the end of GoF. And then, he had no idea that his and Harry's wand shared cores so he couldn't predict what saved Harry then. Dumbledore saved Harry at the end of OotP, and he knows enough Occulamency to be able to duel with LV. When Harry and LV meet in the final battle, I think the very first thing you'll see is LV making a comment about how Harry must know Occulamency because he can't see what Harry is trying to cast. I think you're totally wrong here, but the only way you could be right about the Harry/LV battle is if LV keeps his own mind closed to avoid letting Harry see too much through the scar connection.

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...and we'll be saying a big hello to all intelligent life forms everywhere; and to everyone else out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together, guys...

But Dumbledore has already indicated in HBP that Voldemort has stopped - and probably for good - getting into Harry's head after the Ministry HQ fight.


Oh and until book seven comes out, my faves from best to least:

Azkaban
Prince
Stone
Phoenix
Chamber
Goblet

Well, LV isn't going to try to possess Harry again because being inside Harry is painful, but that's not the same as Legilimency, which is just a spell.

And my favs are:

Goblet and Prince (tied)
Azkaban
Stone
Phoenix
Chamber

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...and we'll be saying a big hello to all intelligent life forms everywhere; and to everyone else out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together, guys...

I accepted that Dumbledore is dead, but one thing bothers me.

When Snape AK'd him, the text states
"dd was blasted into the air: for a split second he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he fell slowly backwards, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight." pg 556 UK edition HBP
Now anytime someone has been killed with AK they just drop to ground, why all this extra stuff, what does it mean or does mean anything?

GOF Cedric death, just falls to the ground, Riddle family death slumped over the table didn't move from sitting positions, spider during class - same thing. Why is Dumbledore different? <_<

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And all this science I don't understand, It's just my job 5 days a week.---Rocket Man--(BT/EJ)

It's just to add detail to it; would you really want Rowling to say he just dropped to the ground? No, he's way too important and it's much more personal then Cedric, wouldn't you expect as much?

Well if it's just stylistic writing, I personally could do without. JKR is pretty consistent, and all other deaths with AK are very similar. I'm in a book club discussing this book but unfortunately we are only on chapter 10, and i had to get this off my chest.

thanks

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And all this science I don't understand, It's just my job 5 days a week.---Rocket Man--(BT/EJ)

I wrote up a little editorial and Mugglenet actually published it. For those who asked for detail its in there, although the whole Harry is Gryffendore's heir was shot down by JK herself on July 16th toward the end of her interview.

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...and we'll be saying a big hello to all intelligent life forms everywhere; and to everyone else out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together, guys...

Nice editiorial, really good insight and examples. Now we have to wait 2 years to see how close your editiorial comes into canon.

I thought it interesting that you have more than one reason of LV going to Godric's Hollow. I have always thought of the Potter's death having to do with the incomplete prophecy LV was told, not having to do with a horcrux. Another tidbit to think about.

Again excellent write up.

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And all this science I don't understand, It's just my job 5 days a week.---Rocket Man--(BT/EJ)

Hi all. I'm new to the site, but I'm not new to Harry Potter. I've read through the thread, and I'm fascinated to see responses to HBP that I hadn't seen before. I had been convinced by other threads that Snape might still be good, and that if he wasn't it was really bad writing, but some of you have some excellent reasons for how he could be evil, and it would still be good writing.

I'm still leaning towards the camp that says he's good and just deep undercover. Something about the way he was yelling at Harry on his way out of Hogwarts just left me with the feeling that he was desperate to get through to Harry and frustrated that he hasn't been able to thus far, and still hating him on some level. One of the reasons I don't think he is evil is that he didn't kill Hagrid or Professor Flitwick or whoever it was that ran in to help Flitwick - it escapes me at the moment. There are so many people he could have killed to weaken Harry for Voldemort's attack, and he did not.

I also think Dumbledore is dead, but in book one, Dumbledore says that death is just the beginning of the next journey, to paraphrase, and who's to say his journey doesn't still involve him in Harry's fate?

Just a few thoughts.

[rant]Fiendishly more complex? :blink: How so? And forgive me for being blunt, but how on Earth did you get through Book 10? I finally gave up after the umpteenth unnecessary description of a dress followed by some idiot girl with her hands folded huffily under her breasts staring angrily at some man who doesn't know how to respond.

Argh! Jordan is a man who could learn a thing or two from Rowling about planning a series! He originally said this would be a trilogy and for the last several books has been claiming that it will take three more books after each book! And in the middle of all this, he writes a prequel! A PREQUEL!!!!

I've finally given up until I have word the series has ended or he has dropped dead. I'm particularly aggravated, because I've been following this series since it's inception in 1989.

I hope you're right about it's complexities, because I'm thinking all sorts of evil thoughts about the author, and there are hundreds of people so upset, they've taken the time to comment about it at both Barnes & Noble and Amazon. [/end rant]

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"The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."