Before I decided to post my encounter with the Marfa lights I did a search on the forum to see if they had been discussed...they had, briefly. Here's the tale of our sighting.

First, Marfa is a small town in west Texas. The Texas Dept. of Trans. has erected a viewing pull-out on the highway about 9 miles east of town. CalamityJaimie and I had attended a star party at McDonald Observatory the night before (Cool!!!..got to look through a dozen 'scopes, listen to a couple of lectures...), stayed overnight in Alpine and decided to try our luck at the viewing station.

We arrived just before sunset (mid-December) on very cold and somewhat windy day. Temps were in the mid-40's, wind about 15mph. We could see the head and tail lights of vehicles on the highway that runs from Presidio to Marfa to the west. To the south and southeast of the viewing platforms there is nothing but empty terrain, running to the mountains to the south, many miles away. Just before total darkness we spotted a white light almost directly south..came from nowhere. We watched with binoculars for many minutes..no movement of the light.

But...after about 5 minutes a light zoomed off to the left (southeast) at a what seemed a very high speed, the original white light remained. In the fading light there was no way to get a real sense of that speed. The moving light seemed to "dance" up and down at quite a distance away from the original.

The first white light started moving westward, turned to a pinkish color (not a fault of the binoculars as they are a high-end fully-coated optical system), split into three separate lights that continued moving. The three lights recombined to a single white, split again into three, recombined into one white and finally "winked" out.

We watched the other two original lights for a bit, they exhibited no further movement and with the cold and wind turning us into statues...we left.

If you read any of the many web hits you'll find that the lights were first noted in 1888 by cow herders and have been seen ever since. That rules out the thought that the lights from the Presidio-Marfa highway are somehow reflecting/bending, whatever and creating the illusion.

The area where the lights appear is called "Cienaga", which I think means swamp or lowland in Spanish. Many believe the lights might be swamp gas...
But the night we saw the lights it was fairly windy..which would probably rule that out.

I'm a skeptic, always have been. I also realize that the eyes can be fooled, especially seeing "lights" at night.

Whaddya think? Real? If so, what? Is this woo-woo land?

The more I learn the dumber I feel.

GeorgieB

We have the Gurdon Light here in southern Arkansas. It is quite regular as well. Since the lights are associated with an active railroad track, I guess that is involves some light source reflecting off the shiny rail.

Eerie? Yes.

Supernatural? Most probably not.

If only the rail line would let me spray a few miles of track flat black...

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In the progress of this discussion I shall endeavor to give a satisfactory answer to all the objections which shall have made their appearance, that may seem to have any claim to your attention.

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Do you know if anyone has ever tried to walk, drive, or fly directly toward the lights? Day or night? Has anyone photographed the lights and then photographed the same spot during the daytime?

I've driven that highway several times, and I've ridden along on the Amtrak which runs along that road. Further to the West the rail track and the highway are closer to Mexico and I could see fires burning in Mexico and also the lights from Mexican towns. If I wanted to, I could rent an airplane and fly from Highway 90 directly to the location of the lights during the day to see the source of them. Has anyone done this with the Marfa lights?

Has anyone been out in the desert with a car, South of your viewing position, aiming the car back toward Highway 90, flashing their lights as a test to see how far away they can be seen from the highway?

I see on my map a small town of Peridiz, South of Marfa, to the East of the highway to Presidio. Has anyone taken a car to Peridiz and flashed the lights back toward Highway 90 to give a distance marker to viewers on Highway 90?

Is there a road from Peridiz to the East to Highway 118? A road from Peridiz to Highway 118 would pass East to West about 18 miles South of your viewing position.

Where I live in the Western desert I can see single street lights (used as night-lights on ranches) at least 25 miles away.

Is there a private airport in the desert between Peridiz and Highway 118? Some of the South Texas ranchers have their own airplanes.

Campfire lights could have been seen in the desert in the 1880s.

Nopal Road crosses West to East about 8 miles South of your viewing position. The desert in this area is probably filled with unnamed ranch roads.

Someone needs to do some distance tests, with cars or with an airplane. The airplane could fly South of your viewing position and the pilot could let the viewers know by radio how far South of the viewing position he is.

So far, I've never heard of anyone doing any distance tests regarding these lights.

The small mountain, Cerro Baludo, would be about 36 miles nearly due South of your viewing position, at 29° 45' N; 103° 57' W. Its elevation is about 4,700 feet.

Georgie, the light that zoomed off to the left at a “very high speed,” was that speed faster than any airplane could travel? Or could it have been at about the speed of a prop plane or a military jet?

When I was in Junior High School, some kid took me to a cemetery at night to see the red flashing headstone. It scared the heck out of me at first, until I realized its polished surface was reflecting the flashing red Firestone tire store sign from about a mile away. The flashing headstone could be seen flashing from only one particular position in the cemetery.

I’ve been suspicious for some years that the Marfa lights are natural car lights, lights at ranches, fire lights, etc., out in the desert, with the town of Marfa promoting them as being “mysterious” so they can get more people to visit and stay over in Marfa. One of Roswell, New Mexico’s, biggest businesses now is tourism, and there is another town in New Mexico that has been trying to promote their own “UFO crash site” for several years, trying to bring tourists into town.

People who pass through the Western deserts and who aren’t familiar with them, do not realize that people live out in the desert and the desert is criss-crossed with rural dirt roads, and also some rail lines run through the desert. Plus, there are some private ranchers’ airstrips in the desert from which planes can take off and land during the night. Some ranchers have automatic landing strip lights they can turn on with a radio signal and turn off after they land.

Let’s see if we can link to a topo map. The center of this map should be a couple of miles South of the Highway 90-67 viewing position. If you can zoom out, you can see a rail line in the desert and many desert roads. If this link works ok. This map is a zoom in, a few miles South of the highway viewing position, and it shows what looks like some kind of landing strips:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=13...atum=nad83&u=7

Here is a close view, several miles South of the viewing position, that shows the University of Texas Radio Astronomy observatory and several radio tower installations.

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=...83&layer=DRG25

The next view South of that one shows more radio towers. To go to the next view South, click on the green arrow at the bottom of the map.

The next view South shows “Landing Strips”, about in the center of the map:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=...83&layer=DRG25

My brother has seen that. I haven't though.

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Georgie,

Please tell us more about what you saw. I've never talked to anyone who has seen the Marfa lights.

Sam

Thanks for all the thoughts.

Typing "Marfa Lights" and googling, I found:

http://www.astronomycafe.net/weird/lights/marfa.htm

which has a pretty thorough examination of the phenomena. Most of the discussion there revolves around Highway 67 from Presidio to Marfa and the possibility that car lights/tailights could be reflected by the highly reflective nature of the desert soils. I wonder about this as the lights we saw were much more southeast than looking towards the southwest towards H67. But reflections could be one answer.

Several attempts have been made to coordinate ground and aerial observations with mixed, inconclusive results. Others have apparently tried to hike towards reported sightings, again with no definitive answers.

There is a bookstore in Marfa that did have a book showing "photos" and eyewitness accounts, but I did not buy it (this was before our trip to the viewing area). I don't think I'd buy it now as it seemed on quick reading to be too anecdotal for my liking. By the way, the town of Marfa is trying to distance itself from the lights, preferring in a much larger way to become the "Sante Fe" of Texas with a fairly active art colony.

One of the reports on the AstronomyCafe.net site has a detailed report where they attempted to cross-reference aerial and ground observations, the conclusion being that the lights were indeed from cars/trucks on Highway 67. But, the last line states something like..."the lights reportedly have been seen in the late 19th century, and if so would mean we'd have to reconsider our conclusion". Reportedly, the first sightings were in 1888 by cowboys who saw the lights while moving cattle through the area. They spent a cold night, worried that the local Apaches might be in the area, but a daytime search showed no trace.

The topos do show many trails/roads, and I suspect that the Border Patrol might be active throughout the area which would account for the sudden appearance and movement of the lights. Abandoned airfields, radio towers, radio astronomy sights are all modern and would still not account for the earlier showings.

I'm still skeptical about the "lights", my first thought was "I wonder how much they pay those kids from Marfa to run around the desert with colored flashlights?" Whatever the cause it's still a wonder.

GeorgieB

Dumber than usual today after trying a first pass of 2005 taxes.

Sam5 asked about the "speed" of the light that I saw move off.

I should have qualified that statement about the perceived speed. It's almost impossible to determine the speed of anything without any visible, stationary reference, and that goes double at night. I have no idea about the speed. CalamityJaimie claimed she saw the lights "bounce up and down", I didn't. And, we had nothing to drink beforehand.

GeorgieB

Georgie,

Thanks for all the information and the links. I always wanted to see the lights but I never had time to stop off in Marfa.

It looks to me like many of the photos in these links are time exposures, which would make a point light source look like big round blob. The long streaks are time exposures too.

I’ll try to go out in my yard tonight and see if I can take some time exposures of lights I see that are about 10-25 miles away. The ones I see are house lights and yard lights on ranches in the distance. They are always there and never move.

What you said about the soil is interesting. If there is mica in the soil or other types of reflective sand or minerals, that might cause some odd effects from reflected car lights.

The color of the 1888 lights would be important to know. If they were orange, they were firelights. If they were blue or other colors, I don’t know what they were.

http://www.astronomycafe.net/weird/lights/marfa21.htm

http://www.gazeraids.com/marfalights/MarfaMap.jpg

http://www.nightorbs.net/Mystery_Lights.htm

http://www.nightorbs.net/MysteryLites2.htm

I'm the world's worse skeptic although I have seen 2 events. The first was in South Carolina. I was may 10 or 11ish. I saw a silver cyclinder come from the sky vertically and go into the woods at the end of the block. I was young so I went to where I thought it had come down and found nothing. By the way there was no sound associated with this one. In the other while I was a freshman in college some friends and I were simply messing around and we all saw a figure in a silver suit. We were not drinking either. The figure ran over a rise and disappeared. Have no clue on either one but I'd love to see something else. I'm still a very bad skeptic. As for your lights I have no clue. I wish I knew I might make a few bucks on it. Skyywatcher

What other information can you share?

Was the moon full? What can you say of the mountains, location and distance? It was windy, so was it dusty? Are the lights associated with any of these potential factors?

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Lighten up! This is a stellar board!

Since you live not too far from Marfa, I think we all should chip in and send you some money so you can go there as our official representative and investigate this.

The weather at the time "we saw the lights" was cold, clear, no moon. Venus was setting but to the west, not southeast. It was windy but no perceivable dust in the air. Few clouds in the sky.

We were told (someone at the Marfa book store) that the best time to "view" was during the winter months, Nov-Mar approximately.

GeorgieB

My mind is reeling from that 1040

Was it this last December? Full moon was on the 15th.

Specific times would be helpful, too, not that I have an answer, however.

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Lighten up! This is a stellar board!

George asked about dates:

The star party at McDonald Observatory was the night of Saturday, Dec 3, making the Marfa date Sunday, Dec 4.

Both the moon and Venus were in the southwest (fairly high in the sky), and in fact that was a very pretty sight. The moon was a waxing crescent with Venus appearing just to the west of it.

Again, we were viewing the "lights" more to the south-south east. Both the night at McDonald and at Marfa were very clear -- good seeing.

The full moon around Dec 15 did sort of spoil one of the programs I gave while at the Castolon Visitor Center...but folks did get to see M42 and one or two other objects.

GeorgieB

When I first posted I thought there might be a fairly prosaic answer hidden somewhere. That's why I was less than accurate as to dates (not mid-December, but Dec 4), no moon (there really was a crescent to the south west but very thin).

The next time I'm in the area, possibly volunteering again at Big Bend NP, I'll make a much more detailed observation...bringing my D70, long lens, etc. Might be a fascinating trip. Oh yes, I'd bring warmer clothes.

GeorgieB

I think the big problem with the Marfa lights is that Marfa is a long way from any major city, so not a lot of skeptics have time to go there and hang around for a week or so waiting for the lights to show up. I’ve been through Marfa several times, but I’ve never had time to stop over.

Let us know if you go there again. Also, you might want to pick up some topographical maps before you go. They will show the mountains in the distance and help you pinpoint where the lights actually are.

As I mentioned earlier, when I’ve ridden past Marfa on the train or driven past, I can see lights to the south that are in South Texas or over in Mexico. I used to see large fires burning in Mexico. I never knew what they were for. The highway gets closer to the Mexican border around Valentine, to the West, then very close to the border West of Sierra Blanca. Plenty of lights can be seen in the mountains over toward Mexico and also in Texas. There are old ranching and farming settlements all along the Rio Grande River, to the South of the main highways.

Cool. Small world.

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In the progress of this discussion I shall endeavor to give a satisfactory answer to all the objections which shall have made their appearance, that may seem to have any claim to your attention.

Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 1

GeorgieB,

I'm new to this site and a strong introvert, so I'd appreciate a little decorum if there are any replies.

Here's the answer, but I'll warn you it's kinda like watching those street magicians where you say, "How the hell did he/she do that??" Then they show you and you shrug, "Oh" and walk away, disappointed.

The tops of the north slope of the Chinatis are covered by hard, but white, reflective soils (USDA Boludo Series, 2002) that reflect car lights towards the Observation Area. Alas, because the surface is curved it distorts the image like a fun-house mirror. You can mimic the effects with a small flashlight and a curved facial mirror.

The 1883 descriptions so thoroughly quoted sound nothing like what is there today - and I've yet to find an actual copy.

From above, there is absolutely nothing from the UV to FIR, nothing.

The Center for Image Processing in Education (I'm not affiliated other than a contributor of data) is already using it their lesson "Guiding Light" optics sessions for HS physics students in several states. The optics model, admittedly, is no fun.

On a personal note, I've seen them several times, videorecorded them, had them overflow with a digital data analyzer. I had to ask the most obvious and un-asked question: if there is really nothing unusual, why do the lights appear so different from every other road in the world that happens to descend from a mountain slope?

Sigh.

Sounds like time for an experiment. A couple (or few) people in cars trying to recreate the phenomena, a coupe observers/photographers, all connected by radio and carefully documenting the timing of all events.

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It is interesting that Marfa is only about 40 road miles from the McDonald Observatory. Would the Texas Star Party want to get involved with this kind of project? Maybe it would be a good backup for a cloudy night.

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Lighten up! This is a stellar board!

Unfortunately, I no longer have the relevant link, but several years ago, a group set up some monitoring equipment, including spectrum analysis gear, at a Marfa "veiwing point."

They claimed that the only lights recorded matched perfectly the spectrum for automobile headlights. The report was well written and organized -- no proof of authenticity, but certainly not a quick joke some kids thought up.

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Standing on the shoulders of giants...

Interesting information, thanks. Do you think the lights are reflections off the mountain, with the original and true lights actually being aimed South, and being reflected North off the mountain where they are seen from the observation point which is North of the mountain looking South?

So what happened in 1883?

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A couple of months ago I was driving down Route 18 in western Oregon from McMinnville to Sheridan just around local sunrise. Glancing off to my left at the Cascades I noticed several very bright (specular) points of light on a couple of the mountains. Of course, my camera was at home. But I noticed that the lights seemed to be on the south-facing sides of the mountains (we're tallking February, so the sun was pretty far south. My best guess was grazing reflection off some snowfields.

I was also remembering grinding mirrors as a teenager. After the fine grinding is done and you start to polish the mirror, you begin to produce flat areas on the highest points of the glass. If you lift the mirror and look at the reflection of a light source from a grazing angle, the flat areas will produce an actual image. As polishing progresses, the angle becomes less and less as more flat areas are produced. So, if there are surfaces out in the distance, could grazing-angle light on a distant surface produce the effects?

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If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers.

Here's a link to a 2-pager I had to slam out in a hurry. Please remember that scales of 10-20x were used in the elevation models. http://www.jsjremotesensing.com/id30.html

Very possibly, nothing!

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Standing on the shoulders of giants...

My fiance and I go to Big Bend every year, always through Marfa, but never have time to stop (there or at McDonald! - He's observed at McDonald in undergrad, but I've never been there myself). That's cool that you do volunteering there! We keep thinking that there would be a great potential for McDonald/Big Bend combined outreach.

Living in the desert myself now, on clear nights you can see for miles and miles.

The 1883 lights could have been, say, a lantern on a distant buggy or campfires. Or, perhaps, reflections from their own campfire/lantern.

Did you also see the Prada store in Valentine, TX?

Prada Store Marfa
(and subsequent pictures for closer views)

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