The heat(although for that region I imagine it's closer to the norm) claimed the lives of hikers in various endeavors in Utah.

2 hikers die in Utah desert

One girl was seperated from her hiking group and didn't last long apparently. For me the real jaw-dropper was the guy from right here in Jersey who coughed up $3,000 for a month long survival course from Boulder Outdoor Survival School(home of that digging dude from the History Channel).

Despite making clear he was suffering from the regimen involved, the course instructors must not have paid it much mind. He conked out and flat-lined right there on day 2.

The site for B.O.S.S is very exhaustive(no pun!)in covering all the points of their courses, which run from innocuous stream-side camping with fire starting and rock splitting all the way to reenactments of James Brolin in CAPRICORN ONE. Some very, very tough stuff.

Could be me, but between the lines, it seems the organization is geared a little more towards the sensational end of the experience than the practical. The testimonials seem to confirm that it serves as a kind of ego proving ground more often than as a way to prepare someone for survival in harsh environments.

This tidbit from B.O.S.S. struck me as a bit glib...
I would loved to have seen the faces of the guy's family when they heard "They carry a cup"!

The Survival School says - Our goal is to take you from a world of convenience and comfort and put you in a situation where you must go 'just a little bit farther' — past those false limits your mind has set for your body.

The whole thing is sad. I just don't get how people feel the need to push it like that. What did it gain this poor guy from River Vale? I guess his other organs had some actual limits.

I'm a bit lazy and frighteningly out of shape, but I have to believe that I've gotten a little more useful survival tips from watching "Survivorman" and repeated viewings of Cornel Wilde running for his life in NAKED PREY, than I would have from paying The Boulder Outdoor Survival School a couple of grand to try to kill me.

Some people give up on difficult activity long before they reach their physical limits. Others don't. The way to find out which is which is not to force march people beyond the point they claim to be unable to go beyond and see who dies.

In a survival situation the proper course of action would be to beat this person to death with the cup.

Risk on BOSS Course

__________________
0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 ...

Historically speaking, I believe that is in fact referred to as a "death march." As in, Bataan. (Though, of course, these people weren't in any particular risk of being shot and had paid for the experience. So really only a very mild comparison, but still.)

I wonder how "they have a cup" will stand up in court if they're actually not allowed to carry water bottles.

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Watching something on TV doesn't really compare to actually doing anything, except maybe watching something else on TV.

Going through a survuval exercise gives the experience of survivng, actually using what is learned. Watching TV gives the experience of watching TV, plus the added bonus of maybe getting really good with the clicker.

__________________
Don of Borg - Cool, Calm, Collective.

"Within the next generation I believe that the world's leaders will discover that infant conditioning and narco-hypnosis are more efficient, as instruments of government, than clubs and prisons, and that the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

I was the airman stupid enough to present at the "Goodbuddy" AFB, TX sick call with the classic symptoms of dehydration - severe cramps, muscle weakness, nausea. After a CRT and general checkup, I was diagnosed, pumped full of IV fluids, had to drink like a gallon of nasty Kool-Aid like drink every 30 minutes for two hours and placed on an alcohol-restricted diet for two weeks.

__________________
In the progress of this discussion I shall endeavor to give a satisfactory answer to all the objections which shall have made their appearance, that may seem to have any claim to your attention.

Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 1

And tell us Airman Cylinder, how did you get so dehydrated?

__________________
Don of Borg - Cool, Calm, Collective.

"Within the next generation I believe that the world's leaders will discover that infant conditioning and narco-hypnosis are more efficient, as instruments of government, than clubs and prisons, and that the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Apparently if you drink beer exclusively for a couple of days, the alcohol actually leaches more water from your body than the beer supplies...

Whoda think it!!

ETA: I was lucky. Had I been a bit more intoxicated when I showed up at the clinic, I would have got an alcohol-related incident which would have prevented me from obtaining an SCI clearance.

__________________
In the progress of this discussion I shall endeavor to give a satisfactory answer to all the objections which shall have made their appearance, that may seem to have any claim to your attention.

Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 1

There was a case in Arizona about 10 years ago when about 11 hikers were drowned during a sudden flash flood in Antelope Canyon. The only survivor in the group was their guide. He knew how to climb the sheer face of the cliffs and he managed to get above the water line. Everyone else – who weren’t experienced with canyon wall climbing or flash floods – died.

Many tourists like this are from big cities in the East, and they are not prepared for hiking in the extreme desert heat and they don’t know how to survive flash floods. It would be like taking someone out of an office environment and putting them in a dangerous desert or canyon situation with no training whatsoever. In the three desert states of Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico, several tourists die here each year, either from the heat, from flash floods, from falls in canyons and off mountains, or in winter blizzards.

Back in the 80's the Air Force sent me through desert training near Indian Springs north of Las Vegas. One of the first things we were taught was never camp in a canyon or gully, precisely because of flash floods. Looks to me as if that guide should have been aware of that.
s

__________________
I'm not a scientist, but I play one on the internet.
http://www.rrac.org

Several times I've run across people hiking in the desert without any water & totally inadequate clothing,like sandals.

I refer to them as Darwin Award candidates.

__________________
"An armed man is a citizen
An unarmed man is a subject"

Robert A. Heinlein

That was my suspicion. Had a similar event once (well, alcohol induced dehydration anyway). Went on a 2 day rugby roadtrip in very warm weather during which copious quantites of beer was the only beverage. Got up Monday morning and experienced a nasty burning sensation while urinating. First thought was what I might have done that weekend that I didn't remember doing. Went to the campus clinic where it was determined I was badly dehydrated and had a urinary tract infection, probably brought on by lack of dihydrogen monoxide.

Lesson learned.

__________________
Don of Borg - Cool, Calm, Collective.

"Within the next generation I believe that the world's leaders will discover that infant conditioning and narco-hypnosis are more efficient, as instruments of government, than clubs and prisons, and that the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

That particular canyon is very narrow and has colorful walls of sandstone, so people like to hike it. From the floor of the narrow parts of the canyon, they couldn’t see much sky above. A canyon like that can flood quickly if there is a hard rain 10 or even 20 miles North of where the hikers were located, so there might be no sign of rain in the area they were in, but the water just suddenly comes rushing down the canyon from the North, with no warning at all.

http://www.usatourist.com/english/pl...opecanyon.html

http://gorp.away.com/gorp/activity/hiking/antelope.htm

Several years ago I hiked about 3-1/2 miles in Chaco Canyon to see the ancient Nova rock painting. It was about 90 degrees outside that day. I took about half a gallon of water, and a bunch of food. Plus, I signed in at the ranger station to let them know I was hiking and that I would be parking my car at a certain place. They usually go in search of hikers if they don’t return to their cars by nightfall.

It took me only about an hour to walk to the Nova painting, but it took about 3 hours for me to walk back.

I’m sure you’re familiar with all the news reports on KOB and the other stations about the lost and dead hikers. About two weeks ago a lady policewoman didn’t show up at work after her vacation was over, so they sent teams out to find her. She was lost in the woods. They finally found her two days later. She was ok.

Good Lord! This forum is in desperate need of a "facetious" smiley.

Besides my core point is that their approach - paying several thousand dollars to have some "survival experts" sell survival basics to you by the sheer result of you managing to survive the process - seems a bit surreal.

You know, when I was a child, our local library had this Hardy Boys book wherein the Hardy Boys teach you survival tips for all sorts of things. (The only one I vividly remember is hypothermia, which is of course the opposite of what would have been helpful in this instance.) The point is, you don't learn how to survive by not dying unless you're going about it the inefficient way. Learn the techniques first, then put them into use so you know you understand them. Less risk of, you know, death.

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Yeah, and we had boy scout and cub scout training in the 1950s, plus “duck and cover” A-bomb attack training. Lol, we could survive A-bomb attacks.

You know, I was thinking.... suppose some people paid a “guide” to take them hiking in downtown Manhattan in the heat of the summer when the temperature is 100 degrees, and then the guide does NOT tell them to take along enough food and water and he does NOT allow them to stop in restaurants for food and water. I’ll bet some Manhattan hikers would die too, if they were force-marched for hours up and down the city in the summer without adequate food and water.

Especially considering the humidity. At least in the desert (I grew up in southern Arizona and have spent considerable time in Colorado and New Mexico as well) your evaporative cooling is more efficient.

As for this "give you a cup" baloney,... I am in total agreement with Ronald Brak's assessment as to the proper use of that cup.

past those false limits your mind has set for your body.

Nature is not impressed by such slogans. There are limits past which you can push yourself. But there are other limits you can't no matter what your attitude.

__________________
"Slapping a guy on the head is just as funny now as it was eighty years ago."