On Slate

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If you're careful enough, nothing bad or good will ever happen to you.

It is deterred while they are in jail

But I guess they're talking about recidivism, right?

Wonderful. What do they propose as an alternative?

Personally, I don't think the prospects of prison or even the death penalty deters most hard core criminals because they probably don't think they'll get caught. If deterrence isn't effective, then perhaps punishment should be the objective. While they're in prison, they have a much harder time victimizing the population at large. That may be the best we can hope for. Some criminologists report that a criminal's behavior usually changes by their late 40s when they finally realize that they're wasting their lives. Maybe longer sentences are the key. Rehabilitation and "corrections" certainly don't work when you look at the recivitism rates.

"careful studies"

Good to know they were carefully done, I'd hate to make policy decisions on sloppily done studies. :P

Personally, I've always thought of prison as being the place society sent you when it felt you were no longer a viable member. You were 'selected against' by the societal body as a whole to be removed because you were a danger to the overall health of the body.

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Ranger Brad: Oh, say... You don't believe those old legends about the Lost Skeleton of Cadavra, do you?

Dr. Roger Fleming: Ranger Brad, I'm a scientist, I don't believe in anything.

Punishment has never been an effective motivator. Much less so when the punishment isn't instant.

In a way, training humans is a lot like training kittens. Punishment (the dreaded water bottle) is effective, but only if you catch them in the act. Redirecting their behavior is better. (Don't scratch up the couch. Use the scratching post I've placed in a prominent place for your benefit instead.) Reward is better. (Come when I call you, you'll get a treat.) Random reward is quite possibly most effective, and effective it is. (Slot machines or rats bar-pressing. And yeah, we're talking addiction levels here.)

From a societal standpoint, I have no solutions to suggest. But that's probably why I'm a programmer and not a social scientist.

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In Fallout 3, 'happiness' is a warm junkyard dog and a loaded gun. It's mostly the loaded gun.
- Moose's one-line review.

"your going to regret that one. You are now a colonoscope...
- Chrissy, corrupting PraedSt's wish.

Happens all the time, unfortunately. Having decisions made on good studies would be a nice switch.

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In Fallout 3, 'happiness' is a warm junkyard dog and a loaded gun. It's mostly the loaded gun.
- Moose's one-line review.

"your going to regret that one. You are now a colonoscope...
- Chrissy, corrupting PraedSt's wish.

In this country the maximum jail time someone can be convicted to serve is 30 years. There´s no life sentence or death penalty.

A famous character down here [the "Red Light Bandit"], involved himself on assassination attempt right after being released from a 30-year jail time. So, his jail time protected society for 30 years, but was ineffective to reahabilitate the element.

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If you're careful enough, nothing bad or good will ever happen to you.

Most ex-cons will tell you that prison is the most effective form of criminal finishing school there is; they learn all sorts of new illegal trades, make all sorts of contacts that will help in future criminal enterprises, and have it reinforced that Society doesn't give a flip for them anyway so their antisocial activities are justified.

Prison all too often is a place Society can send people it doesn't want to deal with so it doesn't have to deal with them. Of course, when they get out and commit another crime, it simply proves Society right in the first place.

Prisons are necessary; you can't simply tell all criminals, "Go, and sin no more." But, they need to provide counseling and retraining, protection from internal violence, and hope.

And, yes, some people need to simply be locked away and kept there, but many shouldn't be there in the first place.

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Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov

We studied in anthropology about cheating in societies. Within a society there would be those who go along with the commonly established rules, and those who cheat and break the rules.

The rules followers can tolerate a certain number of rules breakers, but rules breakers may appear to be more successful to others so their numbers begin to swell. Why work when you can scam others and get away with it?

Soon there are too many rules breakers and the society splinters into those who will tolerate the rules breakers and those who won't and leave the society as they no longer wish to tolerate the rules breakers.

Prison was a way to show the rules followers that the rules breakers weren't being allowed to 'get away' with it and therefore makes it much less likely that one group will want to break away because it perceives rules breakers as getting a free pass.

This is a simplistic synopsis, my brain isn't working today.

Also education in prison is a delicate subject because of this same thing. If a rules follower sees a rules breaker getting more education in jail and having more opportunities than the rules follower does, then it appears that the rules breaker is again getting a free ride and hence the risk of a rules follower quitting the society to form another.

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Ranger Brad: Oh, say... You don't believe those old legends about the Lost Skeleton of Cadavra, do you?

Dr. Roger Fleming: Ranger Brad, I'm a scientist, I don't believe in anything.

A criminal mind is a criminal mind. I'm sure there are some ratios of "prison would" or "would not" be a deterrent.

But what about the rest of us? Would the reasonable person do certain crimes if there was no deterrent of prison? Everyone draws the line somewhere different in the sand.
I consider myself nowhere near a criminal. But, I know I have had thoughts of some minor issues that were quickly squelched because the thought of prison time scares the bejeebers out of me.

So; My opinion is that prison is a great deterrent for the non-criminal mind that may be on the fringe.

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

Ever seen, or read, A Clockwork Orange? That's one alternative means to handle criminal behavior. I'm not particularly eager to exchange our current system for that one, let me tell ya.

Or how about Minority Report? Arrest the criminals before they commit their crimes... what a concept! Not too practical, though (see Randi's site for updates on the current state of precognition skills).

It's awfully hard to imagine a viable alternative to the current prison system, despite its faults. Remember what Richard Pryor said about visiting a pen, all full of sympathy for the poor oppressed inmates? Turns out there's some really bad, er, mothers in those places.

So how do we protect society from those bad, er, mothers without prisons to keep them segregated? And if we keep the prisons, how do we prevent them from becoming Crime U? Maybe we keep the inmates isolated in their own little cells, with a TV and a library card? Deliver their meals on a cart, let them out to bathe or exercise one at a time? I see some practical problems there.

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Bring back Firefly!

"It is quite clear that Occam's razor does not sharpen in your pyramid." (Nicolas)

"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." (Paul Simon)

Just send 'em to Australia.

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In Fallout 3, 'happiness' is a warm junkyard dog and a loaded gun. It's mostly the loaded gun.
- Moose's one-line review.

"your going to regret that one. You are now a colonoscope...
- Chrissy, corrupting PraedSt's wish.

So how do we protect society from those bad, er, mothers without prisons to keep them segregated? And if we keep the prisons, how do we prevent them from becoming Crime U? Maybe we keep the inmates isolated in their own little cells, with a TV and a library card? Deliver their meals on a cart, let them out to bathe or exercise one at a time? I see some practical problems there.[/quote]



I don't. It's prison. It's not Happy Happy Funtime Land.

I'm not a expert so if someone has studies about solitary confinement, feel free to lay them on me, but, what I think is, I'd say make socialization a priviledge, earned with good behavior.

Or better yet,

a prisoner is assessed at his learning level upon entering prison. He is then offered goals for learning, literacy, basic math, high school equivalency, etc.... Upon picking a goal, a regiment of cellwork is proscribed and certain goals are required.

Each goal met, passing a test, allows for a priviledge. Socialization time, cigs, chocolate, whatever, and so on....


EDIT> That's been tried Moose, and look what we got out of it! Aussies!!! :P

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Ranger Brad: Oh, say... You don't believe those old legends about the Lost Skeleton of Cadavra, do you?

Dr. Roger Fleming: Ranger Brad, I'm a scientist, I don't believe in anything.

Actually, the appeals process keeps most death row inmates alive too long to be executed.

Try http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...29&btnG=Search.

Basically, long term segregation leads to mental illness, possibly suicide.

Which is not a bad idea. And, it's been/being tried with fairly good results. This is the "positive reinforcement" that was mentioned earlier.

But, there's another problem... What to do with a convict who has served his/her time and wants to rejoin Society? All too often, this effort is lacking. The ex-convict becomes frustrated, is convinced that Society doesn't care, loses hope, and slides back into crime.

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Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov

This is the "locks only discourage the honest thieves" line of thought.

Take it back to the beginning. If parents instill the proper value systems in their kids, they will make the right choices whether there is any punishment or reward for doing so.

If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.
Albert Einstein

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Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov

Double edged sword. On the one hand, they should be able to put their past behind them, on the other hand, you get one recidivist and the bedwetters of the world would rather see all convicts hung from the gallows than risk a single incident from happening again. So comes the inevitable registries and the blatantly prejudicial screenings that haunt ex-cons for years. Recidivism is a problem, but the expansive nature of it is a demon of our own making. Too easy to assume every ex-con will return to crime and treat them all like outcasts for the benefit of society's safety than take a risk that most of them might bounce back.

People who are born and raised as cowards will always scream to be protected at any cost to anyone but themselves.

Weirdly, it seems that it is the cowards that are committing the crime, and screaming for protection.

Why not use the system?

Yeah, supermax prisons are scary. From this report I see that they dont have ANY access to educational or recreational materials. http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/usa/index.html

which is obviously a recipe for insanity. However, a car thief or B&E expert isnt likely to get into Supermax is he? It should be for murderers and violent offenders ... and again not as a punishment for revenge but as a 'self selection' by society to remove members who are no longer of value to the society and who cannot be salvaged. I hope this thread doesn't start heading into the death penalty arguments.... <SCARY> :O

So at a standard security, socialization is one of the first rewards offered and one of the first taken away....

Also as towards socialization back into Society....maybe a mandatory class dealing with such socialization which if passed may look favorable to a parole hearing?

Or course all this costs money which the public isnt interested in spending on so either it is shown as cost effective to be spent thusly OR some other method is done to see it done <charity organizations which teach prisoners?>

Yeah the impromptu office poll of the two ladies I work with to the following question,"Would you like to see Master's degrees offered in prisons?" yielded the suspected "Hell No! I wish I got education for free" response. :P

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Ranger Brad: Oh, say... You don't believe those old legends abou