While reading about the San Fransico ban on plastic bags, I ran across these statistics:
- San Francisco uses 181 million plastic grocery bags annually
- the ban would save 450,000 gallons of oil a year
- remove the need to send 1,400 tons of debris now sent annually to landfills
Now; keeping with the way that politicians have a habit of only supporting their views. (duh) I was wondering what others thoughts. In particular:

How many disposable plastic bags could be made with the oil used to produce one re-usable bag? How often can the re-usable be used? (I'm sure it varies greatly on the material used)

Assuming a good percentage will just use a bio product (ie paper bag). Then what other environmental impact would we see? Worst case, how many trees for 181 million paper bags?

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

I've been using reusable bags for at least five years, some closer to twenty. I'm taling decent, fabric bags. 5 of these bags should have you covered for at least 5 years. Iw would be hard for me to believe that 1 such bag would take moer resources than all plastic bags I'd use in a year otherwise.

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

In the ideal world, I would agree with you. But we are talking about a throw away, instant culture, not prone to think about "I gotta bring a bag". Now, being in California, there may be a higher percentage of people who think that way, but wouldn't a good percentage of those be using a re-usable bag already?

I guess I'm skeptical as to the overall impact. On the surface, the idea makes sense, but I keep seeing things that reduce that sense.

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

Well, "people won't do it" is an argument that can take down any initiative. Of course, the argument is valid when the proposal indeed is too much of a burden, too clumsy, etc. But bringing your own bags to the shop is just a very simple habit, just like bringing your wallet to the shop. There's nothing more to it than having a bag, and taking it with you.

And as soon as they ban the free throw-away bags in the shop, you'll think about bringing your bag. You can even buy the reusable bags at the shop itself, you don't have to go looking for them.

Overhere, most shop still do the throw away bags though. But they charge you for it. A good reason to remember to bring your own bag.

I for one tend to just use the same backpack I use to go to Univ, when travelling, etc. It has served me every single day for like 9 years now. This way, I don't even need a reusable shopping bag .

That said, apparently the dentist thought I wanted throw-away fillings, as the most recent one just fell out. I knew something was wrong. The tooth used to hurt when I ate something sweet, and after the filling it still did, which shouldn't happen. It must have had a bad seal all along, an now it's gone. Well, I think I ate it. But anyway . I'll go and ask him a reusable filling on friday. pfff another half a day lost on travelling.

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

Absolutely; But that is one argument that I never see measured in actual practice.
I would personally leave some bags in the car in case I needed to go to the store, but some people don't have that luxury, or foresight.

And; how many times are there indirect results that can or cannot be attributed to an action, but not considered because there is no way to determine the relationship? See, my elephant deterent is keeping them out of my cherry tree. So; painting their toenails red is not going to help them.

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

And they did only say Petroleum based bags...
Anyway, it does take a culture shift, and it does depend on greediness.
You will probably have stores that still offer free paper bags for business sake.
You will probably have stores that sell the options.
And you may even have stores that only sell the paper bags so they can keep earning profit for each visit instead of a single one-time larger profit.

Again; hard to guess.

A discount store I go to here offers bags for sale, but they also stock the products in their boxes. So, I usually just take the boxes that are going empty instead of using bags. That eliminates the waste altogether. The boxes are going to be thrown out anyway.

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

I hate those plastic bags, especially when you need to carry or transport more than 1, or if you have fragile goodies mixed with hard and/or heavy goodies. They hold no shape, refuse to stay in position, are awkward to tote in multiples. Sometimes I end up with groceries spilling all over the place. I will not patronize stores that use only the plastic.

I like the paper ones, and am willing to pay a nominal fee to use them. I also could easily get used to a nice heavy duty reuseable as a norm.

My typical trip to the grocers results in 4 to 6 FULL bags (the standard brown paper variety). That would take about 12 to 15 of those silly plastic excuses of a bag.

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Don of Borg - Cool, Calm, Collective.

"Within the next generation I believe that the world's leaders will discover that infant conditioning and narco-hypnosis are more efficient, as instruments of government, than clubs and prisons, and that the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

I spent seven years working in a grocery store during my high-school and college years, a considerable amount of it as a cashier. Those plastic bags are pure concentrated evil. A properly packed standard paper bag (1/6 bushel size, I think they are called) can hold the equivalent of several plastic ones and are far easier to pack.

I can't tell you how many times I've helped my wife unload the groceries (she won't take me with her) only to find a single bottle of soda inhabiting one of the plastic bags. When I do go grocery shopping, I actively seek-out the paper bags. They are always available in my area, although I sometimes have to ask for them. (I always do my own bagging.)

The problem is that paper bags aren't cheap. I don't know the actual cost, but was told by the store manager that the switch to plastic was done purely to save money. So, I find it ironic when cashiers place paper bags inside the plastic ones.

As for the cloth bags, we had a few customers who used them. They weren't as easy to pack as the paper bags, but anything that can stand-up on its own was easier to pack than those plastic abominations.

BTW: We have a local discount grocery store that charges a few cents for the paper bags. They also sell the reusable cloth ones. That is probably a workable business model, IMHO.

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"That's Not Blight. It's New Jersey" - The Wall Street Journal

No one has mentioned this advantage of plastic bags yet.

Cost was mentioned...
But; are they 90% worse, or 5% worse?


I would agree with you there, but nobody "Properly" packs bags anymore. The art of bagging has gone away, it used to be like a game of Tetris (I wonder if that's where it came from), Now its grab and drop.

I started going to self-checkout lines so I can bag myself*. But; the only grocery left near me has baggers even at the self-checkouts. Aarrg.

*That sounds like a statement that can leave me wide open.

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

Plastic (the more "bio-degradable" kind, preferably) are useful to me for cleaning clumps out of my cat's litterbox and straight to the garbage bin. I can never get enough of those kinds of bags. I wouldn't want to (re)use paper for that sort of thing.

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In Fallout 3, 'happiness' is a warm junkyard dog and a loaded gun. It's mostly the loaded gun.
- Moose's one-line review.

"your going to regret that one. You are now a colonoscope...
- Chrissy, corrupting PraedSt's wish.

With fabric bags, I meant all kinds of reusable shopping bags. We've got soft cloth ones, some cloth ones with a more defined shape, and some woven plastic fabric ones. The best to pack are those which have a defined bottom side, not just 2 sides that meet at the bottom. Get yourself enough of these bags-with-bottom, bring them with you when you go (grocery) shopping, and you'll never want plastic bags or pay for paper bags again .

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

I remember a study made re. plastic vs. paper bags in Denmark a couple of years ago.
Remember that Denmark is rather Green, and the study hasn't been disputed.

First some needed info:
Our plastic bags as we get them in supermarkets etc. are quite sturdy and can easily be reused, additionally we pay for them.

Denmark don't do landfills, we burn the garbage for the energy in power plants optimized for such mixed content.

Paper bags require both power and clean water to produce, and basically can't be reused, and depending on the color can have chlorine residue from bleaching.
Plastic bags require energy, can be reused multiple times, including the last time as a garbage bag, is made of polyethylene.

The study showed that plastic bags are less bad for the environment than paper bags as they are used more times and ends up in a clean burn.

This is one of those cases where feeling green and natural can actually lead to worse problems for the environment.

This study probably won't be relevant for countries where household garbage is put in landfills, and were clean water isn't considered a resource to be saved, since a large part of the balance is that the bags ends up burned, returning a large part of the energy used to produce them.

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And the "driving on the freeway on a scooter" analogy still holds true because the pilots are sitting in 7 to 30 ton aircraft o' doom and you are running around them in your very own Meatbody, Mark I. Beep, beep.
Trying to make sense of computers, The Error Log.

Those are the kinds of things I'm looking for. People actually studying it.
Now, if we can apply it to Californians, and/or determine how many people will go re-usable vs paper or plastic.

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

Count me among the cloth-bag users, most of the time. I use a heavy canvas tote that I got as a thank-you gift for a charity contribution.

Since my local grocery is right on my way home from work, I stop in two or three times a week for a toteful of supplies. As a bonus, I eat fresher food than if I made one multi-bag trip a week.

Now for the irony: I often get the bags anyway, since the baggers will bag meats to prevent cross-contamination. That means I'll often have a triple layer of plastic on the meats: the original packaging, the meat department bag I put it in before adding to the tote (prevents leaks), and the bag at the checkout.

There are also times when I need more supplies than will fit in the tote, which leads to extra bags. But overall I'm accumulating far fewer of those plastic grocery bags than I used to.

Oh, and by the way: don't ever count on a plastic grocery bag to be waterproof. Take a close look at one. It's extremely common for them to have holes in the bottom where the material is folded and (not very well) sealed. They're designed to carry solid objects, not liquids.

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Bring back Firefly!

"It is quite clear that Occam's razor does not sharpen in your pyramid." (Nicolas)

"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." (Paul Simon)

John meant the fact that the plastic bags are waterproof hadn't been mentioned yet.

I use 'em for this, too. And is it just me, or are the plastic bags weaker now than they used to be? A lot of the ones we get from the grocery store I won't use for scooping litter because of holes in them...

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SeanF

"Ask to understand, but don't challenge unless you have the knowledge."--NEOWatcher

The contents of this post are ©2008 by SeanF and may not be copied or retransmitted in any form without the express written consent of SeanF

It seems to depend on the stores, Sean. I've noticed that the local markets, and the Sobeys chain both have reasonably sturdy bags, and it's not hard to get 'em hole-free.

The Atlantic Super Store chain (the other big market in these parts), on the other hand, get these flimsier bags that have really weak handles, tie poorly, and often do have two small holes at the bottom. Useless for my needs.

And this, in my mind, is one of the biggest factors in my choosing a grocery store.

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In Fallout 3, 'happiness' is a warm junkyard dog and a loaded gun. It's mostly the loaded gun.
- Moose's one-line review.

"your going to regret that one. You are now a colonoscope...
- Chrissy, corrupting PraedSt's wish.

Hi, When it comes to meats, THAT plastic application works fine, but routine use of plastic bags is a damned evil nusiance. I understand that Ireland banned them all together. Well done! I have several canvas totes, and a cooler in the car. I put the items I buy in the cart, and load the totes in the car. Saves time at checkout. Yes, the meat gets wrapped. That's it. Meat and seafood.
And I don't miss paper or plastic bags ripping on me and spilling or breaking my purches. More than pays for my trouble. HOW I WISH we could ban styrofoam cups. It just makes sense.
If we had to PAY enough when we take a plasic bag, we would change our ways. At two dollars a bag, these plastic nightmares would dwindle. YES.
Best regards, Dan