Once again, I hear this phrase applied to the innocent victims of a crime. From President Bush's speech today at the Virginia Tech memorial service:

Yesterday began like any other day. Students woke up, and they grabbed their backpacks and they headed for class. And soon the day took a dark turn, with students and faculty barricading themselves in classrooms and dormitories — confused, terrified, and deeply worried. By the end of the morning, it was the worst day of violence on a college campus in American history — and for many of you here today, it was the worst day of your lives.

It's impossible to make sense of such violence and suffering. Those whose lives were taken did nothing to deserve their fate. They were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now they're gone — and they leave behind grieving families, and grieving classmates, and a grieving nation.

The students and professors killed by the gunman were NOT in the wrong place at the wrong time. They were exactly where they were supposed to be. It almost sounds like they're being blamed for not having skipped class. It was the murderer who was completely in the wrong. He was bent on committing a murder-suicide and didn't have the good sense to do it in the right order (kill himself first).

I suppose if a person were walking down the street and got killed by a reentering toilet seat from a Russian space station ("Dead Like Me" reference to those who may not have seen the show), then "wrong place at the wrong time might apply." I just don't see that phrase applying to an innocent crime victim.

They were in the right place at the wrong time?

Okay, here's my pet peeve along those same lines: There was an accident this morning on the 405...

No such thing. Computers don't make mistakes, and people don't have traffic accidents. Traffic laws are written such that: If all the traffic laws were obeyed all the time, there would never be any collisions.

Every "accident" is the result of at least one driver disobeying at least one traffic law.

Take this one.

The driver was "accidentally" going 91 mph?

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PW -- Plant Whisperer

Some accidents are caused by mechanical failures... and not always due to negligence.

I agree that "wrong place at the wrong time" seems a little grating in this case. I don't think, however, that any implication of fault on the part of the victims is intended. What's really meant is that the victims were ill-fated, that they just happened to be the ones who encountered the shooter. Just the opposite of blaming the victims.

I'm not sure how better to express this in English. Our culture doesn't put much stock in the notion of fate (in the sense of inevitability), and I agree with that. Nor do we shrug off such events as "kismet" or "meant to be". With a few revolting exceptions, we no longer see these events as "God's judgment". So what words are appropriate?

"Just coincidence"? "Terribly bad luck"? "Twist of fate"? None of those really strikes me as much better than "wrong place at the wrong time."

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Bring back Firefly!

"It is quite clear that Occam's razor does not sharpen in your pyramid." (Nicolas)

"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." (Paul Simon)

So skidding on a patch of black ice or being startled by a rock getting kicked up into the windshield is the driver's fault?

You can't predict and avoid every bad thing in the world. It's a simple fact of life.

Political Content removed by moderator. User RalofTyr is warned against such statements, regardless of how heartfelt they may be.

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Fields of Space

LOGIC, n.
The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.

In the Year 2525.

"One small step for (a) man. One giant leap for mankind".

If an astronaut doesn't need good grammar, niether does you.

Host of Seraphim

I wouldn't call him an idot per se, it's more a case of him being really good on his home turf but not understanding that he has no real insight into anyone else's.

I understand your point--I had the same reaction to the phrase when I heard a replay of Bush's speech. I said, hey, they were in the right place--school.

But I don't understand why you'd then approve of it's use in the toilet seat example. Walking down the street is the wrong place?

It's just a colloquialism, like "head over heels"? Or being "turned into Swiss cheese."

Obviously it's just a figure of speech. I can't believe you would waste your time analysing Bush's speech for its use of grammar!

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Climate Change Australia

I would suggest we leave Bush out of this discussion, it is too close to the political limits of this forum.

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At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009

I always thought it meant that the rusults were unintentional, the driver at fault didn't mean for the crash to happen.

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If this writing is blue you're going too fast!

Larry, I know what you mean. That one is a close second to my major pet peeve.

No, the one that really, really cheeses me, is (Don't look Gillian) when some poor nutjob gets shot to death by police "and authorities say he wasn't taking his medication" I get sputtering mad. Since when are doctors, "princes, popes or potentates"?

I have a brain injury that gives me seizures. If I was still taking all the stuff they wanted me too I'd be a drooling idiot consigned to a nursing home. It almost happened in '85. But I'd be seizure free! That's all that's important, right?

I could so go on a multi-page rant here.

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Gimme a minute to read through Jay's latest observations...

The state of medicine has improved some in the last 22 years, Don.

If I ever snap to that level, you can bet my medication status will be mentioned.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

as could i about people who want to "cure" autism

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There is no dark side of the moon really, as a matter of fact it's all dark - Pink Floyd, The Dark Side Of The Moon

Everytime I hear, "The Critics are raving", I think of Siskal and Ebert with rabbies.

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Fields of Space

LOGIC, n.
The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.

In the Year 2525.

"One small step for (a) man. One giant leap for mankind".

If an astronaut doesn't need good grammar, niether does you.

Host of Seraphim

Well everyone who knows you will know it was a spelling or grammar mistake.

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If it's just us, it seems like an awful waste of space.
Contact Carl Sagan

Please don't.

I'll just throw in that though the phrase you mentioned does sound like a glib attempt at blaming the victim in a badly mishandled situation.
It is an unfortunate fact that there are people who are perfectly functional when on their medication and complete whackjobs when not and that police often are not educated or equipped to handle the latter situation.
Most non-lethal options require the opponent to care enough about pain to react to the threat of more of it.

People do die from not taking their medication, whether indirect from turning crazy and attacking police or jumping off a pier, or more directly by not taking medication for a physical disease.

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And the "driving on the freeway on a scooter" analogy still holds true because the pilots are sitting in 7 to 30 ton aircraft o' doom and you are running around them in your very own Meatbody, Mark I. Beep, beep.
Trying to make sense of computers, The Error Log.

Oh don't worry, I know you folks don't want to hear it! That's why I didn't.

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Gimme a minute to read through Jay's latest observations...

I agree.
And in this case, it is reinforced as a figure of speech with the sentence that immediately precedes it

Although, thinking about it does raise the question on the saying itself. I would agree that a "bad place at a bad time" would solve the issue, and maybe that's how it got started.

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

I had the same immediate reaction as soon as I heard those words. Taking them literally (as with many statements by a lot of people) can cause that to happen.

They were of course not in any kind of wrong place. It is just a way of saying they were not doing anything wrong, that they were quite innocently and passively going about their usual business when some really bad stuff happened in their proximity.

Now I've gone and taken the comment about the statement literally. Anyone want to dissect my opinion about the comment about the statement in an overly literal fashion?

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Don of Borg - Cool, Calm, Collective.

"Within the next generation I believe that the world's leaders will discover that infant conditioning and narco-hypnosis are more efficient, as instruments of government, than clubs and prisons, and that the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley