hmm.. I'll give this some thought

Yeah, don't get me started on lawyers....

Or how about movie stars?

Why isn't Lindsey Lohan's career dead already?? Anybody else who pulled the same crap as she did would have been canned a long time ago!

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The dose makes the poison--Paracelsus (1493-1541) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

I don't know. That's why I'm asking--Noclevername

Intelligence may not be clearly defined, but you know stupid when you see it--Noclevername

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge--Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

I have a degree in psychology and I disagree. There are essentially 2 streams of psychology: biopsychology, which has a strong scientific emphasis similar to biology, and the "soft" fields like social psychology, perception etc, which do not have a lot of science in them. Now many of them try to use the scientific method as best they can: blind studies, statistical analysis etc, but the nature of what they study makes using strong scientific methods difficult to impossible. If you look historically at the popular theories in psychology (such as Fraud, Jung, Maslow etc.) you find that they have little to no scientific basis whatsoever and really couldn't be considered science.

Some universities offer both B.A. and B.Sc. degrees in Psycology for this reason. The B.Sc. degree is usually geared towards biopshychology and medicine while the B.A. for specializations in other fields.

(sidenote: I'm talking about psychology as opposed to psychiatry, which is a medical degree.)

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Now while I might be amused by Cthulhians, I don't necessarily distrust them to carry out the functions of government. -- JayUtah

What's it like being a skeptic in the Middle East? Check out my blog.

You misspelled Jung. WTG!

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A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

Oh, don't get me wrong--only a small part of my problem with Freud is his small sample sizes, but it's definitely there. He also very obviously let his own biases cloud his findings, the more so if you really start looking into the history of the seduction theory. And Gods know it could be wishful thinking on my part. However, I've had terribly little experience with psychiatry, and the psychiatrist I saw most often was possibly the least scientific of any of the people I've seen over the last twenty years or so. I've still had very good, very reasoned psychologists, therapists, and whatnot who were looking for evidence above all.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

TriangleMan -- I have a question.

I have a friend who suffers from depression. She has seen a number of psychiatrists and has been diagnosed as all of the following at one time or another
- suffering from a genetic issue
- suffering from sexually abused as a child.
- showing no evidence of being sexualy abused ever
- showing signs that she grew up with parents who were alcoholic
- showing no signs that she grew up with parents who were alcoholic
She has now been placed on some sort of antidepressant medication and she is like a new person.

What I don't understand is why so many psychiatrists are still unconvinced of the benefit of this medication? Why there is still so much argument over whether she should stay on this medication? From what she has told me, there seems to be about a 50/50 split among the people discussing her case between the belief that the medication is a good thing and that the medication is only covering up underlying/unknown childhood issues. Some apparently want to "recover repressed memories" because they think there is no evidence of abuse because she has so totally repressed the memories. Others say that this is nonsense and that even if such memories were repressed, they would affect her current behavior.

Needless to say, she is pretty freaked out. Not by her condition, but by the psychiatrists who are supposed to be "scientifically" diagnosing her condition. From my uninformed point of view, she has blossomed as a result of this medication that she has been put on and I don't understand why there is so much fuss? I don't mean to put these people down, but do psychiatrists really know what they are talking about or is it more guessing?

I've had similar experiences. Even my current therapist, whom I like a great deal, has mentioned in passing the prospect of getting off the meds--and I haven't gotten on meds that work yet!

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Yeah, that seems to be the case with this girl. Some psychiatrists apparently see medication as a temporary thing and want her off it as soon as possible. There are others, though, that see medication as a lifetime sort of thing. Why is there so much difference of opinion?

See arrogance in scientific* disciplines** for the answer to that. They all think their "magic bullet" is better that some other psychiatrists' "magic bullet".

*Stretching the definition of that word to its breaking point. If it'd been psychology, I would've used a different word.

**This one too.

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

Because it's a damned hard question to answer. Are emotional problems due to nature, or nurture? Is it better to solve them with drugs, or will power? Do you know the answer? Does anyone?

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

My friend and I both suffered from depression. We saw different doctors who each put us on the same medication (in the same amounts).

My problem turned out to be caused by sleep apnea. When I got my CPAP (a breathing device) to help me sleep better, it wasn't long before I was able to get off of the antidepressant entirely, which was good, because it was causing undesirable side-effects (significant apathy.)

My friend tells me he has no side-effects of note (nothing nuisancy, anyway), and the meds are doing him an entire world of good. It seems his problem had to do with his brain chemistry being slightly off. He'll be on them for the long term.

Same initial symptom, same drug, completely different causes and results.

Some of the differences may be in differing opinions about root causes and their severity.

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And you, to whom adversity has dealt the final blow
With smiling [faces] lyin' to ye' everywhere ye' go
Turn to, and put out all your strength of arm and heart and brain
And like the Mary Ellen Carter, rise again.

My friend has been told be some of the psychiatrists she is dealing with that she is basically just wired wrong and that this has resulted in a chemical imbalance that the prescribed medication is suppose to correct. She has been further told by these professionals that if she did not suffer from this condition, if this were a matter of nurture, then the medications she is taking would not have the positive effect they have. If this is true, then will power is not involved.

I don't claim to be a psychiatrist so I don't know the answers to your questions. However, it would seem to me that the answers should be known before the mental health field begins to diagnose and treat patients with drugs. If they can't answer these questions, why would their diagnoses or treatments be considered better than those of the average Shaman?

I too suffered from depression (might be worth starting a new thread to talk about the prevalence of depression among BAUT members). At the time that I was put on meds (two different ones), I was living with my now-ex and working in my old Division. I had the boss from hell (who is now the subject of a few lawsuits charging her with discriminatory and bullying management practices); was living in the sticks (I HATE the burbs); had just lost my grandma to AD; had been raped the year before; and was living with a man who emotionally-abused me on a daily basis and later cheated on me with multiple women.

I cried every day, even while I was on meds. In fact, I'd spend most of my workdays closeted in my office, bawling my head off. One day, I was crying so hard that the office director came by to ask if I was ok or needed to go home!

Finally, after two years of medicated hell, my ex and the mgmt of my old division simultaneously did things that wound up being the final straws. I ditched them both for a wonderful man (whom I later married) and a fantastic boss, respectively. I have been off meds for the past two years, and I remain depression-free.

Do I still feel sad, overwhelmed, pessimistic, etc sometimes?

Of course, I do! Everybody does! But I don't feel that way all the time like I did before.

Many psychiatrists don't treat the patient. They just throw pills at him/her and tell that person that he/she must take those pills for life due to a demonstrated genetic pre-disposition to depression. This diagnosis of so-called pre-disposition to depression is based on junk science to begin with; this junk science is then peddled to MDs by pharmaceutical salesmen eager to up sales numbers and HMO actuaries equally eager to reduce costs. The MDs buy into it and perpetuate it. I doubt any one of them have really in-depth knowledge of how those meds work or the 'science' behind depression.

Talk about arrogance!!!

UGH!

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The dose makes the poison--Paracelsus (1493-1541) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

I don't know. That's why I'm asking--Noclevername

Intelligence may not be clearly defined, but you know stupid when you see it--Noclevername

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge--Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

Is numerology a science as it involves the interpretation of numbers?

If numerology is a science, then astrology is a science too, as it involves interpretation of the movement of stars!

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The dose makes the poison--Paracelsus (1493-1541) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

I don't know. That's why I'm asking--Noclevername

Intelligence may not be clearly defined, but you know stupid when you see it--Noclevername

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge--Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

Technology will have universal appeal when it reaches the point reduced to its most simple form where it can serve even a luddite.

So numerology is a science, nice. I was looking at the work of Douglas Adams in its native tongue, English. I say that because I am Australian. The question in "Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy", 'what is the meaning of life the universe and everything'?

If you look at the digits of 'Life Is' that is 12, 9, 6, 5 and 9, 19 as they correspond to the alphabet adding the digits 1 + 2 + 9 + 6 + 5 + 9 + 1 + 9 = 42.

I like it because the answer is in the question and is very simple and at the same time very deep. Simple because life is. Very deep because life is what you allow it to be.

I was thinking of an old song that went along the lines "if you is, you is, you is and if you isn't you ain't". Your existence in the universe is life and in quantum connection that existence is the very life of the universe. Imagine a universe of thought aware of its own mortality in a far off future and planning the seeding of its own consciousness into the next iteration of itself.

The best thought in is in life and in life is the continuance of existence itself, so the answer numerically is 42 and it means "Life Is".

There is a discipline called Occam's razor (sometimes spelled Ockham's razor)

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."

Am living is 1, 13 and 12, 9, 22, 9, 14, 7 so 1 + 1 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 9 + 2 + 2 + 9 + 1 + 4 + 7 = 42.
In balance 42 = 42, so to take this to a self level would be "Life Is = Am Living".

You know what? You had a crappy experience, and your intake was clearly handled wrong. Intake is for the express purpose of weeding out cases like yours, where the problems are situational, not chemical. Obviously, the solution to your situation was twofold--talk therapy, to handle the death, the rape, etc., and getting out of bad situations, which therapists can't make you do.

However.

Just because you had a bad experience doesn't mean there aren't people who need to be on medication. Like, oh, me. Yeah. I have a fair number of "nurture" problems. I can list them, if anyone cares. However, I am also bipolar type I. Look it up. That's one of the ones where willpower doesn't do anything, where getting out of the situation doesn't do anything, where "just cheer up" doesn't apply. If you look at my family history, you can see the illness through many generations, especially if you look for a tendency toward alcoholism, which can be evidence of self-medicating, especially in the days before real medication.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Yahand, 42 = HELL 2 BA, which is kinda our motto

No.

Why?

It doesn't stand up to any kind of mathematical analysis.

Its results are not reproducible in separate experiments.

Finally its claims are not supported by objective, verifiable evidence.

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A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

No.Huh?

Science doesn't deal in coincidences.

Nor does it deal in experiments on apples that are applish and only applish in nature, and then applying the results to oranges.

Not that any of the quoted text constitutes an experiment in any way, shape, form, function, or fit.

__________________
A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

I think noclevername has it right, everyone thinks their magic bullet is better than everyone else's. In psychology you can find that some practitioners have their pet theory so their therapy is geared towards that. For example "repressed memory" syndrome. By the way you should do some Googling on this as the field has a number of critics and there are many cases of the therapist essentially planting memories in the patient's mind because the therapist was so convinced of repressed memories that they kept digging until they "found" some. Repressed memory treatments were the cornerstone of the Satanic Cults hysteria in the 1990s.

Anyway therapy is a medical treatment and your friend has a right to informed consent about any course of treatment. If they want to remove a medication your friend should be told why, and ask if necessary. Your friend should also do research on the medication so that your friend knows the advantages and disadvantages from an independent source. Perhaps the medication does have problems if used over the long-term.

(As a caveat I only have a Bachelor's degree in Psychology and did not specialize in clinical applications, therapy or counselling so take the advice as if being given by a layman)

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Now while I might be amused by Cthulhians, I don't necessarily distrust them to carry out the functions of government. -- JayUtah

What's it like being a skeptic in the Middle East? Check out my blog.

'Just cheer up' and application of willpower never apply to depression of any kind, Gillianren.

I thoroughly agree with that Gillianren; there are certainly cases where medication is necessary. I apologize for giving offense!

What I don't like is the 'one size fits all' approach to treating depression with meds no matter what the underlying cause and telling the patient that he/she has a life-long genetic disease when this is not the case. There are many etiologies for depression. Hypothyroidism, menopause, Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, sleep difficulties (as Moose talked about above), and malnutrition can all cause depression. In those cases, medication/medical treatment is indeed needed--to treat the underlying cause, not just the depression. Many doctors would just throw Lexapro at the patient and not delve any deeper.

This is where the 'junk science' accusation comes in. Yes, in some cases, depression has an underlying genetic cause; this has certainly been shown to be the case for bipolar disorder. However, non-bipolar depression can be either genetic, situational, or a mixture of the two. An intelligent diagnostician should make at least some effort to determine which one it is before prescribing powerful psychoactive drugs. Cognitive behavioral therapy, for instance, has been shown to work as well as drugs for situational depression.

Also, as everybody who has taken them knows, anti-depressants have some nasty side-effects, and the long-term toxicological profiles of the newer ones on the market are unknown. They should be prescribed with caution and only when absolutely necessary. This should not deprive people who need the drug from taking it (as in an underlying genetic disease), but these drugs should also not take the place of therapy and life-change (for those who have situational depression).

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The dose makes the poison--Paracelsus (1493-1541) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

I don't know. That's why I'm asking--Noclevername

Intelligence may not be clearly defined, but you know stupid when you see it--Noclevername

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge--Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

Having worked for years in the medical field, I'd say Medicine ranks up there.

My mother had a run-in with an incredibly arrogant male (what else, in 1960) doctor. She had acute gynecological symptoms. He listened to her complaints, performed an examination ... then took my father aside and told him "It (the pain, discomfort) is all in her head."

Of course this male doctor never having inhabited a female body couldn't have it proven to him personally that she was experiencing pain.

Today my mother's condition would have been diagnosed as endometriosis.

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“I shall always be convinced that a watch proves a watchmaker, and that a universe proves a God” ~Voltaire

Me, by any chance? (Or am I being arrogant for asking?)

I might add that any operational meteorologist (one who actually does weather forecasting) who is arrogant probably hasn't been one for very long. The atmosphere is darned effective at beating down any attempts at growing an ego.

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"I am Meteora, supreme goddess of weather" - Meteora, in The Unchained Goddess

One nice thing about being a meteorologist who also likes astronomy is that the sky is always interesting!

Ugh! This is the thread that won't die!

I posted a question for particle physicists in the 'General Science' section. If any physicists are still reading this thread and if there is some subset of that group consisting of people who aren't still PO'ed at me, I'd appreciate your input on my question.

Thanks kindly in advance!

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The dose makes the poison--Paracelsus (1493-1541) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

I don't know. That's why I'm asking--Noclevername

Intelligence may not be clearly defined, but you know stupid when you see it--Noclevername

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge--Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

I just had another appointment today, and there still isn't anyone at the mental health clinic to prescribe meds. My therapist's sending people to the ER. Bad news. I'd take a little arrogance if proper meds came with it.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

I'm very sorry to hear that, Gillianren. It is scary, having one's physical or mental health depend upon the whim(s) of a person or people who may or may not actually give a damn.

This is why I avoid our health care system unless absolutely necessary--have been treated rudely and dismissively one too many times.

I realize you can't do that. Have been there too; I ran out of meds one time during that time when I was on the antidepressant. I called my shrink frantically trying to get a refill. No dice--had to schedule an appt to come in to see him, never mind that he was booked for three weeks from when I ran out. The pharmacy wouldn't give me any pills to tide me over. Spent 3 days in withdrawal hell before I got my meds, after practically begging my shrink on my knees for help. Wound up making an end run around the SOB; got a scrip from my PCP instead, ha ha. My shrink was ticked.

Got zero sympathy from medical personnel for my pains. Patients with mental illnesses get treated like third-class citizens by our health care system.

I hope you get the meds you need. In the meantime, hang in there!

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The dose makes the poison--Paracelsus (1493-1541) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

I don't know. That's why I'm asking--Noclevername

Intelligence may not be clearly defined, but you know stupid when you see it--Noclevername

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge--Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

Won't the ER prescribe what the clinic would have?

What I at first perceived as arrogance from a doctor:
"Well, if you had insurance, I'd accept you in my (experimental) program."
later proved to be a simple truth; after running out and getting insurance, I was enrolled in his protocol---final bill: ~$150K (of which I paid ~$2K), with a successful outcome.

Hi Meteora!

Great to see you posting again!

Did you hear the one about the arrogant, egotistical meteorologist?

When complaints about his behavior reached one of the older staff members, the response was "If you don't like his current attitude, just wait a minute."

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A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

It's more complicated than that. I have a very good therapist who can't do anything medwise because she's not legally qualified to prescribe. The woman who used to prescribe my meds decided that commuting between Aberdeen, WA, and Olympia (nearly 50 miles one way) and two practices was more than she could handle. (Who can blame her?) Unfortunately, the msot recent timeline I've heard is that she'll be replaced in September. We're supposed to get our primary care physicians (you have to get a physical before they'll send you to the therapist who clears you to get meds) to extend our prescriptions, but my meds aren't working. Marla, my therapist, would love to help me. She can't.

The problem is that everyone attending the clinic where I get my counseling is poor. Our non-profit clinic can't afford to pay much, and they could be making way more elsewhere.

Well, of course, what's absolutely necessary may vary!

My PCP doesn't want to do anything with my meds, because she's not a psychiatrist. She's also overworked, because she's also working at a non-profit clinic. I'm supposed to have her sign for refills until the new shrink gets hired, and I don't think she's happy about it. Nor am I.

Third-class at best. And it's not just the health care system. People with other long-term health problems don't get told to just get over it! (We'll see about the meds. Just as an FYI--if I don't post for one day, I'm probably busy. If it's more than that--and not over a weekend--I'm depressed.)

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"